Some doubts on Prévost (1 Viewer)

[Björn Bergenholtz]

It's written on the plate. "Lesson Del." = Lesson delineavit = Lesson sketched [it].

Even less talking in favour of Alphonse ...

Thanks, Laurent!

 

[Taphrospilus]

I agree that it is a pity to kill Alphonse dedications, but that's life. And of course I would like to know if he was really born 1799 (as mentioned earlier in one of my links) and where. Same for his death which is even more a mystery to me. I could find only his marriage here p. 47.

Note: Lessons wife Clémence Marie Lesson née Dumont de Sainte-Croix (1796–1834) was as well an artist in natural history. At least Lessons hummingbird books contain a couple of plates from Mme Lesson.

I have one additional point to add. Why should be Euryceros prevostii and Amblycercus prevostii (both in the same book Centurie zoologique) for two different people if both descriptions mention Florent and no Alphonse at all?

 

[mb1848]

They did a long stop at Mauritius. Julien Desjardines did collect in the Seychelles, molluscs, fish and butterflies but most were later in the 1830's?? The Liverpool Museum has specimens of the dove from Marianne and Cousine islands in the Seychelles.

 

[Taphrospilus]

According to the Bayrische Staatsbibliothek in Munich: Pl. no. 35 shows Colombe Peinte (C. Picturata, Temm.) in the text to the plate Prévost mentioned l'îles Mariannes. I hope this is enough to disprove the concerns.

 

[l_raty]

l'île Marianne or les îles Mariannes?
("l'îles Mariannes" makes no sense, the article is singular but the name is plural. The Seychelles island should be in the singular; if in the plural, it's the Pacific ocean archipelago that is meant.)

But, whichever, if Florent Prévost mentioned the name in Les Pigeons, this certainly supports the bird being named after him.

 

[mb1848]

Poor Alphonse! The dove is named for Florent. Laurent's cited an article by E. Newton . He does not mention prevostiana he called it picturata. But he did kill a dove on Marianne Island and he mentions that there was no rats or cats on the island. But he thinks that after the island is covered by coconut groves the native birds would disappear. He also mentions on other islands in the Seychelles doves were introduced from Mauritius. Charles Richmond thought that the bird Newton collected on Marianne was prevostiana but he does not say why.
http://www.zoonomen.net/cit/RI/SP/Ture/ture00320a.jpg .

 

[l_raty]

Charles Richmond thought that the bird Newton collected on Marianne was prevostiana but he does not say why.
http://www.zoonomen.net/cit/RI/SP/Ture/ture00320a.jpg .

The MNHN has [two doves from Marianne] as well (collected 1877), that are also called rostrata. Yet Bonaparte's prevostiana is typically placed in the synonymy of nominate picturata, not that of rostrata; and his description (bill slender and elongated ["grêle et allongé" / "gracilis, magis elongato"]) probably excludes rostrata (which he had just described as having the bill much stronger ["beaucoup plus fort" / "valde robustior"] than in picturata; note that both descriptions were based on birds from the Museum Parisianum, so Bonaparte had quite likely had the opportunity to compare these specimens directly). If the birds on Marianne are (or were, allowing for possible subsequent introductions) rostrata, this make it all the more suspect as the type locality of prevostiana.

I tried to trace Bonaparte's bird in the MNHN database (i.a., by checking [all Streptopelia picturata], [all Columbidae collected by Quoy & Gaimard], etc.), but no likely candidate emerged.
Note that, as was expectable, specimens from the Seychelles are entirely lacking among the [Quoy & Gaimard birds].
[Here] is a syntype of rostrata (with pictures of the specimen, label, base of former socle, and the text from Voisin et al. 2005).

...To muddy things still a bit more: I don't know if there are doves there, but it might perhaps be argued that we should as well consider [this]...

 

[mb1848]

Thanks for the hard work! What a great resource the Museum has provided. There is nothing connecting Dussumier collector of rostratus to Marianne Isle it is known he collected in Mahe.
http://iczn.org/content/comments-pr...gantea-schweigger-1812-currently-geochelone-a . I like your thought of the Marianne from Mauritius because of the intersection of 1820 Quoy and Mauritius. A type skin would be nice.

 

[Taphrospilus]

Just to add additional information from BSB. In the book is written:

En effet, depuis l'époque de cette publication, le Muséum d'histoire naturelle de Paris en a recu plusieurs individus de ce dernier pays dans les envois de MM. Goudot et Bernier. L'expédition de l'Uranie lui en a aussi procuré quelques-uns originaires des iles Mariannes. Enfin, il en possède un trouvé aux iles Séchelles par M. Dussumier, et qui forme une variété remarquable.

 

[l_raty]

Thanks, Martin. With such a wording, what Prévost meant was certainly the Marianna Islands in the Pacific, then, not Marianne Island in the Seychelles. (And, thus, there was clearly no misinterpretation by Bonaparte. Where the bird(s) actually came from is, of course, another problem.)
"quelques-uns" (= several) comes as a surprise...

 

[Taphrospilus]

The link in my initial post about Lucien Alphonse Prevost was slightly wrong. Correct is here. There is written:

Prevost (Lucien Alphonse), rue des Saints-Pères, 22, peintre du Muséum d'Histoire naturelle, élève de M. Huet, auteur des dessins pour l'ouvrage de M. de Ferrussac sur les Molusques, pour le voyage de la corvette l'Uranie, pour celui de la Coquille, celui de l'Astrolabe, etc.

I never have seen something similar regarding Florent and therefore still disagree on HBW Alive entry of today

Florent Prévost (or Prévôt) (1794-1870) French museum artist

I would agree on aide-natualiste however you would translate this word into english.

 

[mb1848]

I found some bird illustrations by A. Prevost from 1820 when F. Prevost was 26. It is Kuhl's parrot paper.
http://www.biodiversitylibrary.org/item/113410#page/119/mode/1up .

 

[Taphrospilus]

Small enhanhement his full name was Guillaume Florent Prevost as we find in V4E 621 Archive en ligne Paris here p. 17 of 31 (hope the link works). I would appreciate if Laurent is willing to translate the text (as I understood he died 1. February (as again hier à onze heures in the text) and this would exactly fit to the footnote here). It looks like he was married with Fanny Coucie and born in Paris. As he seems to be Chevalier de la Légion d’Honneur we might find additional information (Leonore).

 

[nartreb]

The handwriting is a bit of a challenge for me, let me start with a transcript:


Du deux Fevrier mille huit cent soixante dix, a onze heures du matin
acte de deces de Guillaume Florent Prevost, decede' hier
a` onze heures du soir, a` Paris, en son domicile, rue ?Curin? onze, age' de
soixante seize ans, aide naturaliste au museum d'histoire naturelle
chevalier de la Le'gion d'Honneur, ne' a` Paris, marie' a ?Fanny?
?Coucie?, a^ge'e de soixante\e quatorze ans ?et?? autres renseignements
?? dit deces du^ment ??. Sur la declaration de Adolphe Jean
?Fetillon?, gendre du defunt, age' de quarante un ans, directeur de l'
Ecole Municipale Colbert, demeurant rue ?Charleroi? ?Bandon? 24, officier de la
legion d'honneur et de Louis Jacques Alphonse Prevost, neveu du defunt,
a^ge' de quarante six ans, chef de bureau au ministere de l'Interieur, chevalier de la
legion d'honneur, demeurant place ?Beauneau? 96, qui ?a chargee? ?accessour? Etienne
Augustin ?Albreils? adjoint, ???? due cinquieme arrondissement, apres lecture
[signatures]

 

[l_raty]

I'd make it:

Prevost
398
Du deux Février mil huit cent soixante dix, à onze heures du matin. Acte de décès de Guillaume Florent Prevost, décédé hier à onze heures du soir, à Paris, en son domicile, rue Cuvier 11, âgé de soixante seize ans, aide naturaliste au museum d'histoire naturelle, chevalier de la légion d'honneur, né à Paris, marié à Fanny Coucie, âgée de soixante quatorze ans [?] sans autres renseignements. Le dit décès dûment constaté. Sur la déclaration de Adolphe Jean Fetillon, gendre du défunt, âgé de quarante six ans, directeur de l'Ecole Municipale Colbert, demeurant, rue Chateau Landon 27, officier de la légion d'honneur et de Louis Jacques Alphonse Prevost, neveu du défunt, âgé de quarante six ans, chef de bureau au ministère de l'Interieur, chevalier de la légion d'honneur, demeurant place Beauveau 96, qui ont signé avec nous Etienne Augustin Albinet, adjoint au maire du cinquieme arrondissement, après lecture.

(Prevost
398
On 2 Feb 1870 at 11 AM. Death certificate of Guillaume Florent Prevost, deceased yesterday at 11 PM, in Paris, at his residence, rue Cuvier 11, aged 76, assistant naturalist at the museum of natural history, knight of the legion of honour, born in Paris, married to Fanny Coucie, aged 74 [?] without other information. Said death duly ascertained. On declaration of Adolphe Jean Fetillon, gender of the deceased, aged 46, director of the Colbert Municipal School, residing, rue Chateau Landon 27, officer of the legion of honour and of Louis Jacques Alphonse Prevost, nephew of the deceased, aged 46, chief of office at the Ministry of the Interior, knight of the legion of honour, residing place Beauveau 96, who signed with us, Etienne Augustin Albinet, deputy mayor of the fifth arrondissement, after reading.)

 

[nartreb]

I'd make it:

(Prevost
398
On 2 Feb 1870 at 11 AM. Death certificate of Guillaume Florent Prevost, deceased yesterday at 11 PM, in Paris, at his residence, rue Cuvier 11, aged 76, assistant naturalist at the museum of natural history, knight of the legion of honour, born in Paris, married to Fanny Coucie, aged 74 [?] without other information. Said death duly ascertained. On declaration of Adolphe Jean Fetillon, gender of the deceased, aged 46, director of the Colbert Municipal School, residing, rue Chateau Landon 27, officer of the legion of honour and of Louis Jacques Alphonse Prevost, nephew of the deceased, aged 46, chief of office at the Ministry of the Interior, knight of the legion of honour, residing place Beauveau 96, who signed with us, Etienne Augustin Albinet, deputy mayor of the fifth arrondissement, after reading.)

Ah, thanks, i think you've deciphered the tough bits. One small correction: Fetillon is the "gendre" which means son-in-law (husband of Prevost's daughter).

 

[l_raty]

One small correction: Fetillon is the "gendre" which means son-in-law (husband of Prevost's daughter).

True, thanks to you too. I went too fast, and anglicized the word rather than translating it, it seems.

 

[Björn Bergenholtz]

Today's HBW Alive Key:

prevostiana / prevostianus / prevostii
Guillaume Florent Prévost (or Prévôt) (1794-1870) French museum artist (syn. Amblycercus australis, syn. Amblycercus holosericeus, Anthracothorax, Euryceros (Jackson 1999, considers that this bird was named for Alphonse Prévost (fl. 1850) French artist and ornithologist), syn. Streptopelia picturata).

 

[Taphrospilus]

Today's HBW Alive Key:

But I still disagree that he was an artist. I agree that he was assistant naturalist as translated by Laurent. Till now no one here in the forum showed evidence that he illustrated any plate.

 

[Björn Bergenholtz]

Martin, I didn´t mean that I agreed in the Key's claim he was an artist (I hope you understood that), I was just informing that your finding of the name Guillaume was now added to the Key's full name of Florent Prévost. In my mind him being called an artist is just a mix-up with Alphonse ...

In the notes for my MS (this far) I have him as: Florent Prévost (1794–1870) whose full name was Guillaume Florent Prévost (and not Prévôt, simply as there´s no circumflex in the birth register), "aide naturaliste" (in the sence: "in office; naturalist" ...?*) and, simply trusting the words by Charles Blanc (1862): "chef des travaux zoologiques au muséum d'histoire naturelle" [in charge of/responsible/head for/of the zoology department/work at the Muséum d'Histoire Naturelle" (in Paris)].

Or something like that (in Swedish).

Björn
_____
*Laurent, am I correct in that the French aide can be interpreted as being somewhat more (of higher "rank") than just a (simple, low-rank) assisistant?