Talaud kingfisher? Tangkoko Sulawesi, July 2023 (1 Viewer)

[THE_FERN]

Folks

I took this on 13/7/2023 at Tangkoko in an open area away from the coast. I'm at a loss to know how one might distinguish Talaud from Collared Kingfisher—all the characters mentioned here:

The taxonomic status of Halcyon enigma on the Talaud islands, Indonesia

seem exhibited by both "species", for example. I suspect my image might be Talaud as:

• bill seems "short", compact and not as deep as Collared generally is
• pale of lower mandible is somewhat restricted, extends less than halfway along (this character seems to vary in both taxa, but Collared often seem to have more extensive pale)
• There's a greenish sheen to the back (present but not especially obvious in the photo)
  
  

Edit: forgot to mention I tried looking at bill etc proportions compared with Collared. Measurements seem to overlap, although bill depth : length was less.

(Ultimately I'm with @James Eaton in regarding this taxon as dubious, but hey it's a "tick")

On a separate note: can pygmy hanging parrot, Loriculus exilis, ever exhibit a dark bill? I assume "no".. (but standard references get key characters wrong so I thought I'd ask)?

Thanks for looking...

 

[Butty]

bill seems "short", compact and not as deep as Collared generally is

...because it's seen from below(ish) here. Sounds barely worth being a race, let alone a species. Why be a slave to others' odd opinions.

 

[THE_FERN]

...because it's seen from below(ish) here. Sounds barely worth being a race, let alone a species. Why be a slave to others' odd opinions.

Why not?

And of course I have taken angles into account. The bill length (cf body length) is within range for collared but bill depth isn't: it's less. Apparently there is overlap in taxon measurements.

Now if we have any id hints to offer..?

 

[Butty]

Now if we have any id hints to offer..?

See above.

 

[THE_FERN]

See above.

What hints are those? You call into question the existence of the taxon, and note the angle (which I've already accounted for). Unless I've missed something, there's nothing that tells me how to tell these two apart nor gives suggestions as to which this is---so no id hints.

Even if one doesn't believe Talaud deserves specific status, it is certainly a well marked taxon (apparently distinctive calls, habitat different, smaller size and (apparent) plumage differences). So as well or better marked than Siberian chiffchaff, Iberian chiffchaff, Canary Islands chiffchaff etc etc which most have no difficulty accepting

So id hints gratefully received.

 

[Butty]

So id hints gratefully received.

Please don't keep repeating this - it's not helpful for anyone. I have made an ID comment, about this photo, and your near-demands for more do not make them a requirement. Thanks.
Thanks also for your additional notes on the taxonomy/validity 👍🏻

 

[James Eaton]

For me, there is nothing that discounts a Collared Kingfisher here - looks like a regular chloris. If the bill appeared slightly shorter than others you had encountered in the field, perhaps it's an older immature with some bill growth to come (judging 15% shorter bill is something I'd rarely feel confident doing, even having seen various taxa within the group thousands of times). The green on the upperparts is slightly variable between sexes/age/light. There's so much overlap, it's difficult to take an alternative identification beyond Collared Kingfisher - I've had a few photos sent to me over the years posing the same question.

In addition, there's no evidence of any seasonal movements of Talaud Kingfisher - resident pairs are present year-round.

Regards

James

 

[THE_FERN]

For me, there is nothing that discounts a Collared Kingfisher here - looks like a regular chloris. If the bill appeared slightly shorter than others you had encountered in the field, perhaps it's an older immature with some bill growth to come (judging 15% shorter bill is something I'd rarely feel confident doing, even having seen various taxa within the group thousands of times). The green on the upperparts is slightly variable between sexes/age/light. There's so much overlap, it's difficult to take an alternative identification beyond Collared Kingfisher - I've had a few photos sent to me over the years posing the same question.

In addition, there's no evidence of any seasonal movements of Talaud Kingfisher - resident pairs are present year-round.

Regards

James

Thanks for this. Talaud is said to be at Tangkoko / NE Sulawesi. Do you think this is wrong, mis-identiifications?

 

[James Eaton]

Thanks for this. Talaud is said to be at Tangkoko / NE Sulawesi. Do you think this is wrong, mis-identiifications?

Absolutely. There's no evidence of it occurring at Tangkoko, or mainland Sulawesi - I've no idea how anyone would identify it for sure, certainly beyond my capabilities anyway!

 

[THE_FERN]

Absolutely. There's no evidence of it occurring at Tangkoko, or mainland Sulawesi - I've no idea how anyone would identify it for sure, certainly beyond my capabilities anyway!

Thanks. Not to labour this unnecessarily (although I think it's interesting), here's some "evidence", from:

Surfbirds Birding Trip Report: Sulawesi & Halmahera - October 2010

"Talaud Kingfisher (Todirhamphus enigma) Near threatened. Talaud, Northeast Sulawesi – 1 perched with a Collared Kingfisher at the Tangkoko viewpoint allowed a useful comparison of the two species. Talaud Kingfisher appears to have recently colonised northeast Sulawesi from the Talaud Islands."

Edit: also

Target Birds at Tangkoko National Park

There are a whole bunch of ebird records for this species from the Tangkoko area, and also for other island endemics (e.g. Sangihe lilac kingfisher) in NE Sulawesi. If we think this is all wrong I'll edit the opus page...

 

[Andy Adcock]

There are a whole bunch of ebird records for this species from the Tangkoko area, and also for other island endemics (e.g. Sangihe lilac kingfisher) in NE Sulawesi. If we think this is all wrong I'll edit the opus page...

I think that if James says they can't be ID'd, take it as read.

 

[Andy Adcock]

On a separate note, for a long time now, I've been unable to view images on Surfbirds, anyone, maybe suggest why?

 

[James Eaton]

Thanks. Not to labour this unnecessarily (although I think it's interesting), here's some "evidence", from:

Surfbirds Birding Trip Report: Sulawesi & Halmahera - October 2010

"Talaud Kingfisher (Todirhamphus enigma) Near threatened. Talaud, Northeast Sulawesi – 1 perched with a Collared Kingfisher at the Tangkoko viewpoint allowed a useful comparison of the two species. Talaud Kingfisher appears to have recently colonised northeast Sulawesi from the Talaud Islands."

Edit: also

Target Birds at Tangkoko National Park

There are a whole bunch of ebird records for this species from the Tangkoko area, and also for other island endemics (e.g. Sangihe lilac kingfisher) in NE Sulawesi. If we think this is all wrong I'll edit the opus page...

Is the trip report author making their own opinion, or it's based on published work? I have no idea how they would conclusively identify the taxon from resident chloris.

ebird - those records are unverified, and haven't been vetted (yet!).