-
Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.
Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
tundra or trumpeter or both in new jersey Added another photo sorry I should have posted (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter piclady3
- Start date
Thank you!
Thanks so much!
Don't think this is right. Sibley says that adult trumpeter never have yellow loral line that 2 of the birds exhibit. Also, suggest there's perspective at play here. For me the back left bird [for example] is appreciably smaller although I can see how might it appear not to be.
Trumpeter swan: 'rarely shows yellow on lores' (big Sibley, 2nd edn).
Fair enough. I have Sibley 1 which says opposite...
...the amount of yellow here is very small...
Joern Lehmhus
Well-known member
The shape and clarity of the loral yellow spot is better for Tundra swan. In the Trumpeter swans I have seen photos of, this spot was very small, or where larger , it was somewhat mixed with black areas
Here are some Trumpeter swan examples showing yellow on the lores:
So I think the rear birds are Tundra swans.
The front bird is the most difficult . A few Tundra swans show an all black bill:
But there is a slight overlap in size and weight for the two species meaning some large male tundra swans can be larger than a small female trumpeter swan. The front bird does not seem larger to me than the other two- but from what I said before that wouldn´t necessarily exclude a Trumpeter swan. However, it is turning its head very slightly in an angle towards us, which alteres head and bill profile a bit.
I think this is also a Tundra swan
Here are some Trumpeter swan examples showing yellow on the lores:
So I think the rear birds are Tundra swans.
The front bird is the most difficult . A few Tundra swans show an all black bill:
But there is a slight overlap in size and weight for the two species meaning some large male tundra swans can be larger than a small female trumpeter swan. The front bird does not seem larger to me than the other two- but from what I said before that wouldn´t necessarily exclude a Trumpeter swan. However, it is turning its head very slightly in an angle towards us, which alteres head and bill profile a bit.
I think this is also a Tundra swan
For me the front bird has a bill/forehead border which ends in a point (most clear in first photo). For tundra this should be rounded. You'll note my comment about size earlier too.
qwerty5
Controversial opinion generator
In the front bird, the eye is less distinct from the bill than in the other two birds. Pete Dunne mentions this as a good point for Trumpeter. In the OP's pictures, it is actually easier to see in the small thumbnail. That said, I think the distinctness of the eye in Tundra is caused partly by the yellow bill spot, so a black-billed Tundra may appear somewhat closer to a Trumpeter in that respect.
P.S. Just a thought, but could the Tundras without yellow and the Trumpeters with yellow be hybrids?
P.S. Just a thought, but could the Tundras without yellow and the Trumpeters with yellow be hybrids?
Joern Lehmhus
Well-known member
THE FERN and querty5,
Yes, I had considereed these points (bill/forehead border ending in point or rounded + eyes more or less distinct from bill) also, but I find them very difficult to judge for single birds, especially on photos. These differences seem generally present, but there seems to be quite a lot of individual variation.
. Also the pink at the mandible edge which is also mentioned as a separating point, is not fully reliable as individuals in both species can show it , though the one more frequently than the other . But look here:
So what do you think of this bird :
Yes, I had considereed these points (bill/forehead border ending in point or rounded + eyes more or less distinct from bill) also, but I find them very difficult to judge for single birds, especially on photos. These differences seem generally present, but there seems to be quite a lot of individual variation.
. Also the pink at the mandible edge which is also mentioned as a separating point, is not fully reliable as individuals in both species can show it , though the one more frequently than the other . But look here:
So what do you think of this bird :
My personal view of the first link here is that the bill edge is actually rounded and the photo a bit misleading. The second looks more clearly pointed but not as much as trumpeter (or indeed for me front bird photo 1).
The all black-billed tundras in your earlier post have clearly differently shaped (shorter) bills than that bird I feel.
I'm left not being certain of the identity of the rear 2 birds, but being fairly certain the front one is trumpeter. I think the rear 2 are tundra (e.g. Compare bill length, shape on left most; also eye separation is not just down to extent of yellow patch, and forehead/bill shape---bird 2 cf bird 3)
Joern Lehmhus
Well-known member
THE FERN,
That´s interesting, because for me the rear birds are Tundra and it is the front bird where I think it is also Tundra but am not fully sure (I could well be wrong there).
Concerning the first link in my previous post: that was only to demonstrate that the pink mandible edge can be very pronounced in tiundra- but generally it is referred to as something typical for trumpeter. I agree with you that the bill/front feathering is probably rounded - but not reliably to be judged fro a side view).
For the second link I posted I think the pointiness of the border bill/front is well within the range of Trumpeter...though it isn´t one.
querty5,
hybrids are possible but trumpeter x whooper in general have more yellow
and trumpeter x tundra can show all black bills but also such bills with a yellow loral spot- andi dio not have enough experience to always separate them from pure birds- but as they are not common and it is difficult enough to separate some individuals of the pure species on some pictures , I left that out
piclady3,
do you have any more photos of the 3 birds ?
That´s interesting, because for me the rear birds are Tundra and it is the front bird where I think it is also Tundra but am not fully sure (I could well be wrong there).
Concerning the first link in my previous post: that was only to demonstrate that the pink mandible edge can be very pronounced in tiundra- but generally it is referred to as something typical for trumpeter. I agree with you that the bill/front feathering is probably rounded - but not reliably to be judged fro a side view).
For the second link I posted I think the pointiness of the border bill/front is well within the range of Trumpeter...though it isn´t one.
querty5,
hybrids are possible but trumpeter x whooper in general have more yellow
and trumpeter x tundra can show all black bills but also such bills with a yellow loral spot- andi dio not have enough experience to always separate them from pure birds- but as they are not common and it is difficult enough to separate some individuals of the pure species on some pictures , I left that out
piclady3,
do you have any more photos of the 3 birds ?
