Two bird of prey help needed (2 Viewers)

[WayuU]

Hi, I'm back again. Long time ...

I have around 1400 photos of birds from my Kenya trip so I hope it's understood that I DO ID most of the photos myself.

This time it's, again, bird of prey I need help on. Both are taken in the Mara region, end of Oct 2007.

The one to the left I'm told to be the Martial Eagle, but according to my Audubon, a Martial Eagle has dark neck and head, and spots on their white body. This one has neither. I can't find this one in my book or on some of my main bird ID sites.

The one to the right I'm guessing to be the Gabar Goshawk. The colors to match though but is it a young individual?

Or, am I all wrong with both?

Thanks again,
Mats

 

[Steve G]

The first is an immature Martial Eagle ( see similar here: http://www.birdforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=116672&d=1197072023 )

For bird 2 I think the options are Imm. Gabar Gos & Imm. Dark-chanting Gos. The Gabar Gos has a clear obvious white rump (not visible at this angle on your bird) & a different jizz/stance when perched -not quite so easy to pick out on a single still image. I haven't got a field guide to hand but worth checking the undertail patterns in the field guide with your bird.
I'm drawn to Dark-chanting Gos but others with greater experience may know better!

 

[WayuU]

Thx Steve.

At least I know one now.
I'll wait to see what others have to say about the other.

 

[gerdwichers8]

The second is rather similar to this Eastern Chanting Goshawk Meleirax poliopterus
http://www.kenyabirds.org.uk/juvenile_goshawk2.htm

 

[Jeff Hopkins]

My impression was chanting-goshawk as well. I believe it's dark chanting-gos in the Mara, but I'm ready to be corrected.

 

[gerdwichers8]

Dark Chanting Goshawk is around the Lake in the West. Masai Mara is a bit more to the East. It seems that the exact border between the species runs through the Park.
These four sources refer to Pale Chanting Goshawks in Masai Mara.
http://www.smedesphoto.com/pale_chanting_goshawk.htm
http://www.infohub.com/vacation_packages/3411.html
http://www.birdtours.co.uk/birdseekers/feb05/Kenya 2/Kenya-2- 2004.htm
http://www.travelpod.com/travel-photo/msting/2006-africa/1152853200/post_dscf1655.jpg/tpod.html

To find Dark Chanting there is easier.

So this is a question to the experts.

 

[Steve G]

Dark Chanting Goshawk is around the Lake in the West. Masai Mara is a bit more to the East. It seems that the exact border between the species runs through the Park.
These four sources refer to Pale Chanting Goshawks in Masai Mara.
http://www.smedesphoto.com/pale_chanting_goshawk.htm
http://www.infohub.com/vacation_packages/3411.html
http://www.birdtours.co.uk/birdseekers/feb05/Kenya 2/Kenya-2- 2004.htm
http://www.travelpod.com/travel-photo/msting/2006-africa/1152853200/post_dscf1655.jpg/tpod.html

To find Dark Chanting there is easier.

So this is a question to the experts.

Sadly I'm no expert!
Eastern Pale Chanting Goshawk is apparently present on Loita plains but it is Dark Chanting that is in the Mara itself & apparently nowhere in their ranges do the two overlap. Distinguishing the two is not easy. In immature birds it's worth checking the undertail coverts. In your link above: http://www.kenyabirds.org.uk/juvenile_goshawk2.htm the undertail coverts are much more sparsely barred -typical of Pale Chanting whilst in WayuU's bird the undertail coverts are much more heavily barred -typical of Dark Chanting.

 

[gerdwichers8]

One source I used was Raptors by Ferguson Lees & Christie which shows barred undertailcoverts in a juvenile female on Eastern Chanting-Goshawk.

This link shows such as well.
http://www.tourism.go.ke/museum_min...2C44A76DB119FABE43256AF6002EF038?opendocument

I had the idea that Dark Chanting-Goshawk might have more prominent barring to the abdomen but that did not hold in all birds I encountered. The nominate is ocurring in the Park.
Even though in Nigeria the same subspecies should occur, I am affraid this link wont help us either.
http://www.tarsiger.com/gallery/ind...country=&place=&order=lisays_paiva+DESC&sel=4

Look at the last adult bird!! Yellow cere?

 

[gerdwichers8]

Dark Chanting Goshawk is around the Lake in the West. Masai Mara is a bit more to the East. It seems that the exact border between the species runs through the Park.
These four sources refer to Pale Chanting Goshawks in Masai Mara.
http://www.smedesphoto.com/pale_chanting_goshawk.htm
http://www.infohub.com/vacation_packages/3411.html
http://www.birdtours.co.uk/birdseekers/feb05/Kenya 2/Kenya-2- 2004.htm
http://www.travelpod.com/travel-photo/msting/2006-africa/1152853200/post_dscf1655.jpg/tpod.html

To find Dark Chanting there is easier.

So this is a question to the experts.

The last pic does not appear too solid an ID.

 

[Steve G]

The last pic does not appear too solid an ID.

Like you I have my doubts about the ID of this one.

 

[WayuU]

It seems no one of you even concider it to be a juvenile Gabar Goshawk, how come?
Our guide, much into birding, was not sure about this sighting, but his guess was Gabar.

What is it you all see that makes you all quite sure it's some kind of Chanting Goshawk and discard it to be a Gabar?

I'm so curious about this.

 

[gerdwichers8]

Hello again WayuU

This bird is a juvenile. A Gabar gives a different impression by it's underbody patterning but convincing is the cere, which is brighly coloured red or yellow(?). The head is characterised by a more pronounced supercilium.
On the side it shows two wingbars. (not seen in your pix)

http://www.naturephoto-cz.com/gabar-goshawk:melierax-gabar-photo-3065.html
http://www.flickr.com/photos/wild_images/2180146221/

 

[Jeff Hopkins]

For me it was the leg length. The chanting goshawks have long spindly legs. Gabar goshawk has shorter legs.

 

[Steve G]

Gabar Gos is smaller, shorter-legged, differently proportioned & adopts a different stance to Chanting Goshawks but THE BEST way to separate them is the prominent white rump of Gabar which admittedly is not easy to see in perched birds. I took these two images of an immature Gabar Gos in the Mara last july:

 

[gerdwichers8]

Where would a birder in his digidust be without photographers like Steve?

regards man.

 

[Dave Kennedy]

The long legs are typical of chanting goshawks. Adult DCG's have red cere and legs, adult ECG's yellow cere and orange legs. Juvenile DCG's should have orange legs and cere, and yellow eyes. All I can make out in the picture is reddish legs. Juvenile ECG's should have yellow legs. I would go for a juv. DCG in transition to its adult plumage.
Dave

 

[gerdwichers8]

All I can make out in the picture is reddish legs. Juvenile ECG's should have yellow legs. I would go for a juv. DCG in transition to its adult plumage.
Dave

But then this link is tagged wrong?
http://www.kenyabirds.org.uk/juvenile_goshawk2.htm

 

[Dave Kennedy]

But then this link is tagged wrong?
http://www.kenyabirds.org.uk/juvenile_goshawk2.htm

The problem is none of us can actually look at the bird in question. We are looking at a photograph which is less than perfect in terms of lighting, focus, detail etc. We do not know whether the individual in question is mature or otherwise. So we reach for information, which may or may not be partially subjective, in a variety of bird books and internet sites to try to solve the problem. And, just like a real sighting in the field, sometimes we can be definite and sometimes not. In the picture in your link I can see orange legs and a probable yellow eye. I cannot make out the cere. According to the literature I have to hand, that would suggest a young DCG. But your site states that its picture shows a young ECG. Fair enough. Nobody ever said that raptors are easy. The information re WayuU's bird has enabled several of us to express our opinions. But opinions are not certainties, and it may be that none of us can be certain in this particular case.

Dave Kennedy

 

[Nicky mwangi]

Mats,
Welcome to Kenya Birding.The first pix is a juvenille martial Eagle and the second one looks like the Eastern pale chanting goshawk-quite common in low altitudes,semi arid areas.All i would like to know is the exact area you took pixs 2 so as to rule in eastern pale chanting goshawk.

Asante.
Nicky!

 

[Steve G]

The problem is none of us can actually look at the bird in question. We are looking at a photograph which is less than perfect in terms of lighting, focus, detail etc. We do not know whether the individual in question is mature or otherwise. So we reach for information, which may or may not be partially subjective, in a variety of bird books and internet sites to try to solve the problem. And, just like a real sighting in the field, sometimes we can be definite and sometimes not. In the picture in your link I can see orange legs and a probable yellow eye. I cannot make out the cere. According to the literature I have to hand, that would suggest a young DCG. But your site states that its picture shows a young ECG. Fair enough. Nobody ever said that raptors are easy. The information re WayuU's bird has enabled several of us to express our opinions. But opinions are not certainties, and it may be that none of us can be certain in this particular case.

Dave Kennedy

I think I'm with you on this.

Under a glaring African sun I suppose the subtle difference between Orange & red tarsi can be difficult to appreciate. Certainly the juv Eastern Chanting Gos pictured on the Kenyabirds.org website has yellower (& possibly longer) tarsi than WayuU's image which shows distinctly red legs. But the deciding factor for me is the undertail coverts which are always less barred in Eastern Chanting -> eventually becoming almost whitish in adult birds. Clearly the sparseness/pallor of this barring is dependent on age but the Kenyabirds juv Eastern Chanting Gos has quite pale undertail coverts despite still having yellow legs whilst WayuU's bird has red tarsi but still heavy barring on the undertail coverts.

I've taken the liberty of copying these images side-by-side to make comparison easier: