Underappreciated Old Porros (2 Viewers)

[elkcub]

Many thanks, Henry!

 

[Hermann]

The old Zeiss West porros you asked about have a unique appearance. The 7X50, 8X50 and 10X50 have huge prism housings and very short objective tubes. The center focus models have a large focusing wheel at the objective end of the center hinge.

A couple of comments on the old Zeiss West porros: In addition to the three models mentioned there is also an 8x30 and an 8x30B both of which have a conventional focussing wheel. The latest version of the 8x30B in particular is a great little binocular, perhaps the best of the 8x30's. That's a pair I'd buy if I ever found one at a reasonable price.

Optically the old porros are not really as good modern roofs, because none of them has a multicoating. The difference in contrast is quite noticeable in the field, especially with the 10x50. The 8x30/8x30B and the 8x50B are somewhat better. Resolution is excellent. However, the 10x50 is pretty soft at the edges of the field of view, but then it has a huge field of view (128m/1000m, 73 degrees subjective) compared to most modern binoculars. I personally like the 8x50B quite a lot, I still use mine whenever I'm out in the evening or at night. Contrary to what has been said here and elsewhere I feel large exit pupils are a distinct advantage at low light levels.

One of the problems with these porros is that after all those years many of them have a slight haze, probably from a build-up of fine dust on the lenses and prisms, although there are some other explanations. And they're not easy to clean from what I've been told, because they are difficult to collimate with their air-spaced doublets. Zeiss/Wetzlar still offers this service, but it isn't cheap.

BTW, the last survivor of this range is the 7x50BGAT. The 15x60BGAT went out of production a couple of years ago.

Hermann

 

[henry link]

A couple of comments on the old Zeiss West porros: In addition to the three models mentioned there is also an 8x30 and an 8x30B both of which have a conventional focussing wheel. The latest version of the 8x30B in particular is a great little binocular, perhaps the best of the 8x30's. That's a pair I'd buy if I ever found one at a reasonable price.

Optically the old porros are not really as good modern roofs, because none of them has a multicoating.
Hermann

Hermann,

Do you know a way to tell the difference by appearance or serial number between the last 8X30B with the 60 degree AFOV and the earlier one with the narrower field? I have a pair of the first ones from the early 60's, but I don't like the narrow field or the strap attachment on the hinge. Did they change the attachment points in the later one?

There was also a 6X30 made during the 50's. I have one of those. It is exactly the same as the 8X30 except for the eyepieces.

As to coatings, I don't think the outside surfaces of the eye lenses are coated at all on either my 6X30 or 8X30.

Henry

 

[elkcub]

Mint Zeiss 10X50's at very attractive prices on eBay are certain to be Zeiss Jena Jenoptems or Dekarems, pre WWII designs that continued in production for decades in East Germany after the war. They can be quite good but quality control was notoriously bad.

Getting back to the Zeiss Jena, which are prevalent on eBay, how do you see them by way of build and view quality, — let's say by comparison with the current Nikon E2? I'm thinking of the 8x30s with multicoating, of course. Are they an alternative to the E2 or other new porros, which sell for about $300 USD. Throw in that realignment might cost about $100 for the Zeiss. (I've only looked through one Zeiss 8x30 and it had a rather limited FOV.)

elkcub

 

[henry link]

2L<caron>dlkcub]Getting back to the Zeiss Jena, which are prevalent on eBay, how do you see them by way of build and view quality, — let's say by comparison with the current Nikon E2? I'm thinking of the 8x30s with multicoating, of course. Are they an alternative to the E2 or other new porros, which sell for about $300 USD. Throw in that realignment might cost about $100 for the Zeiss. (I've only looked through one Zeiss 8x30 and it had a rather limited FOV.)

elkcub[/QUOTE]

I briefly owned a pair of pair of 8X30 Deltrintems which I ordered from a dealer in London about 1988. They were crudely made and optically not very good, much inferior to the Nikon 8X30E of the time. Most of the Zeiss Jena's (with a few exceptions) were inexpensive binoculars in Europe. In 1988 the 8X30 Jenoptem cost about $60 and the Deltrintem about $75 in the UK. The same Jenoptem in the US sold under the "ausJena" brand name for the ridiculous price of $350 because the importer simply charged too much and there was a 40% import duty on East German goods. West German Zeiss porros on the other hand were beautifully made and optically sophisticated.

BTW the Zeiss Jena brand no longer exists. Any Zeiss Jena binoculars on eBay would be at least 10-12 years old or older. I think a few Zeiss Jena designs are still being produced under the Docter Optics brand name.

Henry

 

[Hugh Clayton]

Even older Porros

I haven't yet got round to cleaning the Watson 8X30 "Lynceus" that I bought for pennies a few months ago. But I can tell that performance will be exceptionally good. It has that "snap" into precise focus that you get with a fluorite telescope objective. Not bad for a relic from the 1940s with uncoated lenses. Watson was for many years the biggest British microscope maker and was noted for the high quality of its optics. At various times it also made telescopes, binoculars, gunsights and complete cameras.

I recently compared a well-aligned Nikon 8x30 A (Nippon Kogaku, Mikron, c. 1950s) that I picked up on eBay, with my standard Swarovski SLC 8x30 Mk II and SLC 8x20 binocs (c. 1995). I was astounded how magnificent those old Nikons are!! Birds are crystal clear. FOV, depth, and color rendition are very satisfying. Frankly, given good weather, I really enjoy them more than the expensive Swaros. I don't see much written about field comparisions with older porros. Think it's a well kept secret that they might be just as good — and a lot less expensive?

 

[elkcub]

2L<caron>dlkcub]Getting back to the Zeiss Jena, which are prevalent on eBay, how do you see them by way of build and view quality, — let's say by comparison with the current Nikon E2? I'm thinking of the 8x30s with multicoating, of course. Are they an alternative to the E2 or other new porros, which sell for about $300 USD. Throw in that realignment might cost about $100 for the Zeiss. (I've only looked through one Zeiss 8x30 and it had a rather limited FOV.)

elkcub

I briefly owned a pair of pair of 8X30 Deltrintems which I ordered from a dealer in London about 1988. They were crudely made and optically not very good, much inferior to the Nikon 8X30E of the time. Most of the Zeiss Jena's (with a few exceptions) were inexpensive binoculars in Europe. In 1988 the 8X30 Jenoptem cost about $60 and the Deltrintem about $75 in the UK. The same Jenoptem in the US sold under the "ausJena" brand name for the ridiculous price of $350 because the importer simply charged too much and there was a 40% import duty on East German goods. West German Zeiss porros on the other hand were beautifully made and optically sophisticated.

BTW the Zeiss Jena brand no longer exists. Any Zeiss Jena binoculars on eBay would be at least 10-12 years old or older. I think a few Zeiss Jena designs are still being produced under the Docter Optics brand name.

Henry[/QUOTE]

Wow! $60-75 was not a lot of money in 1988, — but $350 was worth considering carefully. This discussion has saved me a lot of potential grief, since I'm always looking for quality items that have gone out of fashion [I'm a handmade sterling silver buckle collector]. It really makes sense, since I know that the Zeiss Jena binocs were produced in huge quantities, and huge price variations hid behind advertising statements that some models were made with more modern (i.e., efficient) production methods. That really sounded fishey. A better explanation would be that the artificially high price structure in the US could not sustain mass production.

Gimmy those old handmade items.
elkcub (aka buckle backwards)

 

[Curtis Croulet]

And what are the Docter binoculars like? I have a friend who has some sort of wide-field Docter eyepiece for his telescope (I think it's about equivalent to a 35 mm Panoptic -- I haven't asked him), and he thinks is the best thing since indoor plumbing.

 

[O Uzel]

Optolyth Alpin 8X30. How is it compared to eg Nikon 8x30 SE?

 

[Hermann]

Do you know a way to tell the difference by appearance or serial number between the last 8X30B with the 60 degree AFOV and the earlier one with the narrower field? I have a pair of the first ones from the early 60's, but I don't like the narrow field or the strap attachment on the hinge. Did they change the attachment points in the later one?

Well, I know the 8x30B was produced from 1958 to 1978, and that the improved version with the larger field of view was introduced in 1968. However, I can't find the list of serial numbers I've got somewhere. From all I remember the attachment points stayed the same, and I also don't remember any distinguishing features.

Sorry about that.

Hermann

 

[henry link]

Well, I know the 8x30B was produced from 1958 to 1978, and that the improved version with the larger field of view was introduced in 1968. However, I can't find the list of serial numbers I've got somewhere. From all I remember the attachment points stayed the same, and I also don't remember any distinguishing features.

Sorry about that.

Hermann

Thanks anyway. I didn't think there were any distinguishing features. I have a photo of the later one in a 1971 brochure, but it's taken from the wrong side to show strap lugs and the eyepieces look just the same as my pair (perhaps the brochure photo was never changed). When an 8X30B turns up on eBay it's really not possible to know for sure from a photo which one it is.

Henry

 

[Pinewood]

A problem with old Porros, which I have encountered, is that the after forty or so years the balsam discolours, giving a warm tone to the view. I have seen Binuxits made in 1950 and 1951. The former had the problem, the latter did not. I am told that Zeiss (West) glasses of the 1950's and early 1960's had this problem.

Happy viewing,
Arthur Pinewood :scribe: