USFWS Barred Owl Removal Plan (1 Viewer)

[Mysticete]

Spotted Owl (Strix occidentalis) :: xeno-canto

xeno-canto.org

Whatever happens, Spotted Owl as a species won't go extinct (there are isolated pockets of other subspecies in southern California, Utah, Colorado, Arizona, New Mexico, and Mexico). It might be too late for Northern Spotted Owl anyway unless the culls are maintained forever, which doesn't sound cheap nor sustainable. Couldn't the most threatened subspecies be translocated to some isolated, Barred Owl-free location?

This assumes that all of these populations are actually one species...while I don't think there is any new evidence to argue against that, the possibility exists that the southwestern and Mexican birds may warrant species status separate from the Pacific Coast populations

 

[Mysticete]

It's the matter of a subspecies rather than a species, and what role does (Northern) Spotted Owl play in the ecosystem in which it could not be replaced by Barred Owl (the two species are closely related and look similar--though sound different--so it could be that only birdwatchers will notice the difference anyway)?

EDIT: So, I think some (Northern) Spotted Owls should be moved to a sufficiently isolated location if possible.

Where would you put them, that has enough pristine habitat to maintain a viable population and which won't be invaded by Barred Owls, a species far less picky of its habitat choice.

 

[01101001]

In an isolated mountain valley to the south or east of the current range, or an island sanctuary*. Admittedly, it might be hard. But, then, those willing to make a difference should've proactively created habitat barriers (open terrain) between the two populations before overlap was total. They messed up and, but, instead of fessing up, they pretend there's a sudden need for sacrifice. Some early warning systems are either not in place or not working properly. Regarding the owl, setting ethical considerations aside, killing off all Barred Owls is not possible, it's not even worth trying because if they are more adaptable than Spotted Owls, they will claim their current range at sone point anyway. So, either find a new range, or repeat the cull every year to ensure continued existence of Spotted Owls in their current range (and, as John mentioned above, if birders flake out, will the sharpshooters really ID the owls correctly).

* Haida Gwaii - Wikipedia:
only Snowy Owl is a new owl species there; same climate (File:Koppen World Map Cfb Cfc Cwb Cwc.png - Wikimedia Commons); no Barred Owls:

https://ebird.org/map/brdowl?neg=tr...mr=1-12&bmo=1&emo=12&yr=all&byr=1900&eyr=2023

That, and its subsequent isolation from the mainland, encouraged Haida indigenous and environmental activists in the 1970s to use the term "Galápagos of the North", a unique biocultural zone with many endemic plants and animals.

The islands are home to the Ta'an Forest, with a wide variety of large endemic trees, including the Sitka spruce, western red cedar, yellow cedar (Nootka cypress), shore pine, western hemlock, mountain hemlock, western yew and red alder.

 

[Mysticete]

In an isolated mountain valley to the south or east of the current range, or an island sanctuary*. Admittedly, it might be hard. But, then, those willing to make a difference should've proactively created habitat barriers (open terrain) between the two populations before overlap was total. They messed up and, but, instead of fessing up, they pretend there's a sudden need for sacrifice. Some early warning systems are either not in place or not working properly. Regarding the owl, setting ethical considerations aside, killing off all Barred Owls is not possible, it's not even worth trying because if they are more adaptable than Spotted Owls, they will claim their current range at sone point anyway. So, either find a new range, or repeat the cull every year to ensure continued existence of Spotted Owls in their current range (and, as John mentioned above, if birders flake out, will the sharpshooters really ID the owls correctly).

* Haida Gwaii - Wikipedia:
only Snowy Owl is a new owl species there; same climate (File:Koppen World Map Cfb Cfc Cwb Cwc.png - Wikimedia Commons); no Barred Owls:

https://ebird.org/map/brdowl?neg=tr...mr=1-12&bmo=1&emo=12&yr=all&byr=1900&eyr=2023

Okay...but where...? You can say "they should clear away land" to isolate the owls, but how much would that cost? how much land would be needed? Is it even viable? And just saying "Oh they should just find a valley" Okay, but does that valley exist?

Like it or not, removal of Barred Owls may be the only viable solution.

Introducing Spotted Owls onto Haida Gwaii seems like a poor idea, given that the island has an endemic form of Saw-whet Owl which probably deserves species status. Given that larger owls regularly eat smaller owls, this would be screwing over that species.

 

[01101001]

It would cost less than the cull, and the wood could be sold off; whether such a valley exists I don't know.

EDIT: Surely, Spotted Owl can't stand continued influx of Barred Owl, so it would have to be cut off from the latter and not just have the influx of its cousin artificially limited.

 

[Oldnintheway]

Do everything possible to restore & protect habitat without drastic "unnatural" measures. Give the Northern Spotted Owl opportunity to adapt and survive. They may surprise us. I'm not a fan of drastic measures such as relocation, unless it happens naturally, i.e. no human intervention.

 

[01101001]

Fortunately, Spotted Owl's genes will not be lost but (at worst) subsumed into the western population of Barred Owl.

(Will the shooters be able to pick out the hybrids*? The idea of a superspecies given for consideration in the paper is certainly interesting, though it seems to have been refuted by a newer paper.)

https://ebird.org/species/x00439

EDIT: Also, do we kill Yellowhammers because (as a result of human activities) they extensively hybridise with Pine Buntings (although, with owls, only limited hybridisation has been documented yet).

* If they make a mistake in that respect and mistake a hybrid for a Barred Owl, the punishment is severe: https://www.jstor.org/stable/3589002. Still, what about backcrosses?

 

[Scott98]

This has been a fascinating discussion! My thoughts could be boiled down to one proverb "the horse is out of the barn"

In addition the ecological factors I can't help but recognize that huge government bureaucracies often seem to wander off their original mission with counterproductive results, this is a great example of that. By far the biggest problem for the Spotted Owl is that humans cut down almost every last bit of old-growth forest out of lust for money.

I remember how disappointed I was when the Clinton administration negotiated a "compromise" between the lumber companies and the environmentalists in the 90's. There was a certain finite amount of old-growth forest remaining in the PNW, pretty much the only big chunks in the entire USA. The "compromise" was basically cutting the remaining wood, but at a slower rate, so it would take longer. Both sides were furious with the "compromise". What a pathetically weak political move, I thought at the time.

I remember reading how the old growth trees were worth up to 80 times more, per acre of land, than new-growth wood. That tells you all you need to know about why the lumber companies fought so hard to get the trees.

Here is an old quote about the bureaucracy factor from my files:

I read an obit the other day in the New York Times of a Dr. Edelman, an esteemed economist who wrote about “symbolic politics.” It said:

“In Dr. Edelman’s view, government programs to alleviate injustices often serve mainly to allay public concern while creating a bureaucracy with a vested interest in preserving the problem it is supposed to solve.”

 

[NorthernHarrier]

This has been a fascinating discussion! My thoughts could be boiled down to one proverb "the horse is out of the barn"

In addition the ecological factors I can't help but recognize that huge government bureaucracies often seem to wander off their original mission with counterproductive results, this is a great example of that. By far the biggest problem for the Spotted Owl is that humans cut down almost every last bit of old-growth forest out of lust for money.

I remember how disappointed I was when the Clinton administration negotiated a "compromise" between the lumber companies and the environmentalists in the 90's. There was a certain finite amount of old-growth forest remaining in the PNW, pretty much the only big chunks in the entire USA. The "compromise" was basically cutting the remaining wood, but at a slower rate, so it would take longer. Both sides were furious with the "compromise". What a pathetically weak political move, I thought at the time.

I remember reading how the old growth trees were worth up to 80 times more, per acre of land, than new-growth wood. That tells you all you need to know about why the lumber companies fought so hard to get the trees.

Here is an old quote about the bureaucracy factor from my files:

I read an obit the other day in the New York Times of a Dr. Edelman, an esteemed economist who wrote about “symbolic politics.” It said:

“In Dr. Edelman’s view, government programs to alleviate injustices often serve mainly to allay public concern while creating a bureaucracy with a vested interest in preserving the problem it is supposed to solve.”

As an employee of a large government organization, I feel compelled to offer a feeble defense of the Fish & Wildlife Service against the suggestion that it is deviating from its original mission with counterproductive results. The history of that particular organization (for which I confess I’ve done volunteer work that had results that were not at all counterproductive, I swear) shows that, while some of its actions could be argued to have been counterproductive, the mission of the organization has been required to change as the legislature has passed new laws and the executive branch enacts new regulations to be implemented by the organization. This is how government for a nation of almost 400 million people, with continent-wide boundaries through varied ecosystems, has to function. So, of course the mission(s) change, at least in the USA.

The rest of the post I quoted seems to relate to problems in the political system stemming from the pernicious influences of money and the election system on legislation, and environmental damage due to the power of industrial logging companies - not due to the alleged inherent lust for power among federal bureaucrats. As a long-time bureaucrat, I can tell you we don’t lust for power. We actually recognize that we are required by law to do much more than we have the resources and time to do. We do our best to carry out what the law requires in an effective and cost-effective way. I believe the people in the Fish & Wildlife Service, for the most part, try to do the same.

Most of us stay in government because we sincerely care about serving people, the environment, etc., not because we want to maintain or expand our organizations. Otherwise, we’d work in the private sector, where we could earn enough to afford to live comfortably and save for retirement, and we wouldn’t have to constantly hear from people who don’t know us or our work that what we do is wrong or worthless.

 

[pbjosh]

It would cost less than the cull, and the wood could be sold off; whether such a valley exists I don't know.

EDIT: Surely, Spotted Owl can't stand continued influx of Barred Owl, so it would have to be cut off from the latter and not just have the influx of its cousin artificially limited.

Given the existence of Spotted Owls in disjointed / unconnected pockets all over the SW US, one can assume that they at some point had the ability to disperse or move and are now restricted to these pockets. So it’s a fair assumption, at least until proven otherwise, that available habitat suitable for Spotted Owls either a) already has Spotted Owls or b) is no longer suitable.

I don’t want to suggest that FWS is infallible but I think they are probably dealing with more information and getting more informed advice than “find a valley somewhere” or “they should have cleared a barrier previously.”

 

[01101001]

I don’t want to suggest that FWS is infallible but I think they are probably dealing with more information and getting more informed advice than “find a valley somewhere” or “they should have cleared a barrier previously.”

I thought about it as well, but their proposed solution made me doubt some parts of it. How are they going to find more than ten thousand owls every year to shoot* + the logistics of getting to remote parts of the (also mountain) forest? For those wanting to kill Ruddy Ducks, even northwestern France was too much, and Ruddy Ducks aren't elusive nightbirds roosting in hollows in tall redwoods. I sense it's going to be a compromitation with some senseless slaughter to boot, after which they'll try to justify it by saying: now we did all we could, and we're backing off to let nature take its course.

*1,000 records in California, 7,000 records in Oregon, 17,000 records in Washington in total on eBird vs

the FWS said in a draft environmental impact statement that they plan to initially cull around 20,000 of the owls in the first year, followed by 13,397 birds a year in the first decade, 16,303 a year in the second, and 17,390 birds each year in the third decade.

Spotted Owls in California outnumber Barred Owls 3 to 1 (though it includes the southern pockets); if that's not enough, I don't know what is

Fortunately,

Experts are confident that this program will successfully protect the spotted owls

Judging by the already successful House Sparrow and Starling eradication programmes, what could possibly go wrong?

EDIT: Apart from that, Spotted Owl and Barred Owl are the first (only?) known example of hybridisation in the wild in the genus Strix. How about protecting that?

 

[01101001]

So it’s a fair assumption, at least until proven otherwise, that available habitat suitable for Spotted Owls either a) already has Spotted Owls or b) is no longer suitable.

Proven otherwise: another subspecies (occidentalis) has been extirpated from https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sierra_de_San_Pedro_Mártir_National_Park. It is pretty isolated from other populations, too: Spotted Owl (Strix occidentalis) :: xeno-canto. And dirt cheap compared to the cull (not to mention ethical considerations).

 

[pbjosh]

Proven otherwise: another subspecies (occidentalis) has been extirpated from https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sierra_de_San_Pedro_Mártir_National_Park. It is pretty isolated from other populations, too: Spotted Owl (Strix occidentalis) :: xeno-canto. And dirt cheap compared to the cull (not to mention ethical considerations).

I don’t know where you get your data or your confidence. S occidentalis is still present, confirmed by surveys as recently as 2017-2018. This is the top google result for Strix occidentalis San Pedro Mártir:

Composición y abundancia de búhos en el Parque Nacional Sierra de San Pedro Mártir, Baja California, México | ACTA ZOOLÓGICA MEXICANA (N.S.)

azm.ojs.inecol.mx

But you seem to know everything so don’t let readily available information get in your way.

I don’t know enough about the whole situation to really opine. I agree culling is probably fraught, difficult, and not a long term solution.

But I still think the Forest Service will have acted upon more information and on the advise of greater experts than present in this thread.

As well I think a lot of people here are making a logical leap from genetic data to “that means no cull necessary.” Whether Barred Owls historically did exist in the W or not is irrelevant to the fact that anthropogenic changes are driving their expansion and that Spotted Owl is in serious decline. Whether that should be managed and how is a valid debate but the exact prior range of Barred Owl is kind of immaterial isn’t it, given that their is no question they are expanding dramatically and displacing S occidentalis.

 

[01101001]

west side of the Sierra Nevada in California, and from Monterey County south to San Diego County; formerly also northern Baja California (Sierra San Pedro Mártir, now extirpated)
(I took it from Clements v2022)

 

[pbjosh]

west side of the Sierra Nevada in California, and from Monterey County south to San Diego County; formerly also northern Baja California (Sierra San Pedro Mártir, now extirpated)
(I took it from Clements v2022)

Let’s suppose it is extirpated. It is/was never a common bird there from what seems to be known. So you have a small amount of habitat that may or may not still be viable for a different subspecies of this bird. Tell us how you know that it is a suitable location for birds of a different subspecies that are coming from a colder climate and a different ecosystem and how this is the solution to save Northern Spotted Owl?

It’s a messy situation and like many here doubt there is any “good” way to manage it. The whole issue is fraught and whether or not to manage it and how are really valid debates. But I’m glad that there is a government institution who consults with scientists who’ve spent their lives studying these birds instead of reading birdforum and shooting from the hip.

 

[01101001]

It's called a 'mountainous massif of boreal affinity' in the Mexican paper you linked.

Two types of climate according to the Wikipedia page; the former matches the range of the northern subspecies pretty well (though it's the warmer 'a' type).

File:Cs climate.png - Wikimedia Commons

commons.m.wikimedia.org

File:BS climate.png - Wikimedia Commons

commons.m.wikimedia.org

Yes, they might be remainders of occidentalis Spotted Owls there, but slight admixture from another subspecies wasn't a barrier to saving White-headed Duck from extinction: https://www.animalaid.org.uk/duck-secret-revealed-spanish-white-heads-impure/

Most importantly, it is possible no one mooted the idea: wouldn't it at least be worth considering before millions of dollars are put into the prevention of birds?

 

[01101001]

Any help or further critical feedback welcome because I think I'll be launching a petition, and I want it to make as much sense as possible. There is one already, but it hasn't been signed by too many people and it doesn't have some of the arguments it could've had (no way to contact the author).

Sign the Petition

Stop the Uâ.âS. Fish and Wildlife Service from killing Barred Owls

www.change.org

 

[01101001]

Here's the link; will probably start a thread in Birds & birding about it complete with a poll:

Sign the Petition

Don't kill Barred Owls; move Spotted Owls instead

www.change.org

The petition remains editable, so I may add other arguments if you have ideas. (At least 5 signatures are needed for it to show on the website.)

EDIT: BTW, I don't lose anything if I'm wrong; neither do the owls.

 

[Jos Stratford]

Here's the link; will probably start a thread in Birds & birding about it complete with a poll:

Sign the Petition

Don't kill Barred Owls; move Spotted Owls instead

www.change.org

The petition remains editable, so I may add other arguments if you have ideas. (At least 5 signatures are needed for it to show on the website.)

A petition calling for the moving of Spotted Owls without any real knowledge on the subject, other than 'suitable habitat must exist elsewhere' seems a little shortsighted to me. You mention Sierra San Pedro Mártir in northern Baja California has "unused suitable habitat" because the species did live there before becoming extinct - are the factors responsible for them disappearing there addressed?

You are also assuming biologists in the US have not considered alternatives. I assume they have, probably they have deep knowledge of the species, of the threats and of habitat requirements. They have probably studied the species for years, not for a half dozen days of googling.

On the face of it, I can't say the idea of culling huge numbers of Barred Owls sounds logical, but equally have issues with most of the points on your petition. I would not sign your current petition.

 

[01101001]

You can sign the other one, though.

They idea might be flawed, but it gets the ball rolling, and maybe there's some more debate about the fact that a cull doesn't have to be essential for pure Northern Spotted Owls to exist.