What is Behind a Moths Common name? (1 Viewer)

[Wandered Scot]

Why is the Brick called the Brick? Or why Dark Mottled Willow, which eats only grasses?

Are there any old reference books on this subject?

There are some names clearly associated with the plants the larva feed on, or the moth in which habitat found in, part of pattern, an entomoligist, or something associated with it.

But why the Brick?

I must say I love the names given to the moths in Britain they are so much richer in description and thought than some of the boring names given in German. Here they are nearly always directly associated with plant, area, time of year, action, or interaction, and they leave little to imagination or humour.

Cheers

Jim

 

[harry eales]

Why is the Brick called the Brick? Or why Dark Mottled Willow, which eats only grasses?

Are there any old reference books on this subject?

There are some names clearly associated with the plants the larva feed on, or the moth in which habitat found in, part of pattern, an entomoligist, or something associated with it.

But why the Brick?

I must say I love the names given to the moths in Britain they are so much richer in description and thought than some of the boring names given in German. Here they are nearly always directly associated with plant, area, time of year, action, or interaction, and they leave little to imagination or humour.

Cheers

Jim

Hello Jim,
I agree with you over the 'Common' names of British Lepidoptera, they are wonderfully descriptive at times whilst others remain something of an enigma.

Not all of them have remained constant and there have been some changes over the years. One butterfly, The Gatekeeper M.tithonus has had several changes of common name in the last 150 years.

Many common names are more or less self explanetory, others less so. In some closely related species, the common name also includes the name of the person who first separated them, i.e. Real's Wood White, Svensons Copper Underwing or Bergers Clouded Yellow. Other reasons for names you yourself have already given yourself.

As for the 'Brick' perhaps it is because it's forewing colouring is similar to that of some building bricks. These, like the moth itself are variable in colour. The Pale Mottled Willow may have been called this name because it was first recorded as an adult moth resting on the bark of a willow, and because the wings are pale and mottled, this became its name. Pure hypothesis of course on my behalf, but a possible reason.

As far as I am aware there is no book dealing exclusively with the origin of common names, although occasional explanations of individual names appear in many books. There have been two or three volumes published on the origin of the scientific Romano/Greek names which in fact are very interesting and instructive. The best by far is, A. Maitland Emmets 'The Scientific names of the British Lepidoptera' Harley Books 1991. This sold for £17.50 but may now be out of print.

Harry

 

[Wandered Scot]

Thanks Harry.

I'll keep a note on file about the book.

Meanwhile, time to muck out the stys again!! :t:

Jim

 

[mothman]

I think that the Victorians gave us most of the really descriptive moth common names, and these just reflected the rich and "flowery" nature of the English language at that time.

Colin.

 

[Andrew S]

I must say I love the names given to the moths in Britain they are so much richer in description and thought than some of the boring names given in German.

However, I was looking for pictures of Tawny Wave the other day, and a German site came up [this one]. I used the Google translation tool, as my German is not too hot, and the moth came out as "Rust Tension Adjuster", which in my view is much wackier than Setaceous Hebrew Character. I fear it may have been augmented a little in the translation though...

I would recommend the automatically translated descriptions - just a shame they don't have some of the eastern European or Scandinavian languages yet.

 

[Surreybirder]

I tried it on http://www.freetranslation.com/ (one of my 'favourites) and it come up with "rust stretcher".

I also tried translating the German name for green-brindled crescent, Weißdorneule, and it came up as "white thorn owl"--quite nice though I'm not sure how it got that name!
The German for yellow-line quaker, Gelbbraune Herbsteule, came out as "tan autumn owl"
Ken

 

[Wandered Scot]

Hello Andrew & Ken,

You are correct in what your translating, but not quite understanding.

Rostspanner, means Rust as you rightly note being the colour, Spanner, however being in the tense of spanning wings, hence spanner. Nearly all Geo's. are called Spanner, which is my point about english names, you lose Beauties, pugs, carpets, waves etc.
However maybe we could do some literal translating and brighten the names up, Rust Adjuster, or The Tension, sound good to me!

Ken, Weißdorn is the Hawthorn, and all Nocts. are Eule - 'Owls' because of looks and probably nocturnal associated activity. I haven't checked, but probably main food plant of larva. Tan Autumn Owl instead of a 'Quaker', where did 'Quaker' come from does it look like a preacher? Like I say the German names tend to be en masse specific and a flavour or essence that the common english names as we know, are not there.

As Mothman says, the Victorians probably had a lot to do with it, and yet at the exact same time the moths were getting their German name too. I feel we gained from this, and others lost a chance in this.

Cheers, and thanks again.

Jim

 

[Surreybirder]

Thanks for the clarifications, Jim. I have a feeling that the German approach is more logical, less poetic!
I wonder what they call 'cousin German'
Ken

 

[Mike Pennington]

I think that the Victorians gave us most of the really descriptive moth common names, and these just reflected the rich and "flowery" nature of the English language at that time.

Colin.

Actually older. Most English names for moths are of Georgian origin.

 

[harry eales]

Actually older. Most English names for moths are of Georgian origin.

I agree with you to a certain degree Mike, but quite a few have fallen by the wayside since then, e.g. The Royal William, Red Admirable, Albins Hampstead Eye, etc. Fritilla has become Fritillary. Even some Victorian names have fallen by the wayside, e.g. Bloxworth Blue is now the Short-tailed Blue. There are many others as well.

Fortunately the English 'Common Names' don't change quite as often the the generic and specific names. I'm still looking for the larva of the Jasmine Hawk*, I seek it every year a couple of months after one adult has been recorded 'down south'. I'm still living in hope.

Harry
* The Jasmine Hawk is better known today as the Death's Head Hawkmoth.

 

[Wandered Scot]

Thanks for that, I did and still do wonder how far back some names go. Do you think the stone age folk had time to note that some butterflies had ears like the Mammoth they were chewing on, and call it 'Lugs', or do you think that is only a privilege of settled civilisation when people had time to ponder rather than just hunt food?

I mean in stone age time they drew pictures, and knew which insects they could eat. While clearly there is no association with names in Britain from that time, Linnaeus wasn't the first with latin names, he was just the first to create a universal logic in the system. It strikes me there is quite a time span between man with club in hand and Linnaeus and we did progress a bit in that period, although man still likes to have a good club in hand or name.

How long has Silk been known, or used(outside Britain)? Caterpillar rearing and research is not something that is just occuring now in the last 200 years. There must have been common names at least as far back as Roman times in Britain, and Stonehenge time? They could align stones according to the time of year and stars, there must have been some seperation and naming of individuals which lasted some years?

Pity that no one is a round from then to let us know.

All the best

jim

 

[harry eales]

Thanks for that, I did and still do wonder how far back some names go. Do you think the stone age folk had time to note that some butterflies had ears like the Mammoth they were chewing on, and call it 'Lugs', or do you think that is only a privilege of settled civilisation when people had time to ponder rather than just hunt food?

I mean in stone age time they drew pictures, and knew which insects they could eat. While clearly there is no association with names in Britain from that time, Linnaeus wasn't the first with latin names, he was just the first to create a universal logic in the system. It strikes me there is quite a time span between man with club in hand and Linnaeus and we did progress a bit in that period, although man still likes to have a good club in hand or name.

How long has Silk been known, or used(outside Britain)? Caterpillar rearing and research is not something that is just occuring now in the last 200 years. There must have been common names at least as far back as Roman times in Britain, and Stonehenge time? They could align stones according to the time of year and stars, there must have been some seperation and naming of individuals which lasted some years?

Pity that no one is a round from then to let us know.

All the best

jim

Hello Jim,
I believe the earliest illustration of Lepidoptera can be found in the tombs of ancient Egypt some 5,000 years old. Certainly the Chinese knew of Silkworms at least 2000 years ago. I think the first published illustrations of Lepidoptera in England was by Moufatt in the 1500's and it wasn't until some 200 years later that the likes of Ebeneza Albin, Moses Harris and a few others took a direct interest in serious entomology and the study of the life cycles of insects, wrote down in detail their results, and published.

It was only in early Victorian times that the average man in the street had access to the works of others and the study of Entomology really took off in Britain.

I agree that Latin was the main language of the early days, but only educated men of science spoke and wrote it, it was of course, the international scientific language of the time. Certainly it was used prior to Carl Linne's time to describe species. Some of the earliest insect records from my home county have Latin descriptions, these were published some twenty years or so before Linnaeus's System Naturae.

Harry

 

[Surreybirder]

According to: http://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/preview/mmwrhtml/00000237.htm
Skin diseases resulting from contact with members of the Order Lepidoptera were described in ancient Greek medical writings.

 

[Wandered Scot]

Thanks again Ken and Harry

Is there an info link on Moufatt? I can't get any hits, on these 3 early one's you mention Harry.

The funny thing I suppose is that while Latin is now considered a Classic langauge, was it considered as classic when they started naming things, or was it the common langauge amongst them? Has Linnaeus by chance in creating, or in the restructuring of a system through the continued use of Latin, maintained or propelled this lanaguage into our time and (by the looks of it)well beyond? My question is where would Latin be now if Linnaeus had adopted another language for his system? Did they see their Latin names as "common"? Or was it a play upon, or of intelligence?

Now there is an interesting one too Ken, Gypsy Moth. Why 'Gypsy'? Here it is called 'Schwammspinner' after the 'sponge' like(schwamm) egg lay.

Cheers

Jim

 

[harry eales]

Thanks again Ken and Harry

Is there an info link on Moufatt? I can't get any hits, on these 3 early one's you mention Harry.

The funny thing I suppose is that while Latin is now considered a Classic langauge, was it considered as classic when they started naming things, or was it the common langauge amongst them? Has Linnaeus by chance in creating, or in the restructuring of a system through the continued use of Latin, maintained or propelled this lanaguage into our time and (by the looks of it)well beyond? My question is where would Latin be now if Linnaeus had adopted another language for his system? Did they see their Latin names as "common"? Or was it a play upon, or of intelligence?

Now there is an interesting one too Ken, Gypsy Moth. Why 'Gypsy'? Here it is called 'Schwammspinner' after the 'sponge' like(schwamm) egg lay.

Cheers

Jim

Hello Jim

In the 1500's people spelt their names several different ways and Moufatt was no exception, his daughter's name is still perpetuated in the rhyme Little Miss Muffet, I have seen several different spellings of his name.

A very good book by Michael Salmon is available on Ebay. See :-

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/British-Butterflies-Collectors-The-Aurelian-
Legacy_W0QQitemZ8339315114QQcategoryZ29270QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

It's on special offer at present at less than half the original selling price, and very well worth the 'Buy it Now' price. This book covers the early history of collecting, the collectors and societies and also has 100 short biographies of deceased entomologists as well as numerous illustrations of historical insects. It's a mine of information and worthy of a place in every entomologists bookshelf. It is big and heavy so you may have to pay a little more for delivery. There is also a sequal which continues the same theme, but that's only been out a few months and is a lot more expensive. That is entitled:- The Entomologists Fireside Companion.

The seller on Ebay is reliable, I bought a spare copy of this book from him and so have several of my friends.

I think that Latin was adopted in the early days of collecting/recording simply because educated men worldwide all wrote and spoke it, and was easier to communicate in a universal language.

I have some difficulty translating my few German reference books, without an English/German dictionary. Amost all scientific papers in the early days were written in one of three languages, Latin, German and Russian. Fortunately most are published in English these days, but not all. I have a massive report on the Distribution of the Large Heath butterfly in Holland which looks very interesting indeed, and yes, you've guessed it, it is written in Dutch, >';$*&*+~#.

Edit. I cut and pasted the URL but it's not working, but if you go to Ebay and type in the books name in the search section you should find it.

Harry

 

[Surreybirder]

Cannot answer that one, Jim. All I know is that I've got Gypsy blood in me and I've never seen a gypsy moth!
It would be fascinating to know how some moths got their names.... but I guess we'll have to wait for the book.
Talking about books, I see that Atropos have just pubished one on larval foodplants (macros only, I think). If you're interested go to www.atropos.info and it's advertised there. (Just take out a second mortgage )
I only learned a day or two ago where the name atropos comes from.... slow on the uptake, me. I actually did Latin 0-level 40 years ago this year.... but I don't think atropos was one of the words we came across. It was mostly about Caesar waging war and fighting the Carthaginians!
I digress.
Ken

 

[Wandered Scot]

Hello Harry,

Thanks for that info. I will see if the library here can get it for me, sounds really interesting. If you understand german and danish, you can get the gist of what is written in Dutch, but by no means the complete picture. Like denmark, holland adopted many german words into its culture, altering the spelling to how they speak. However that probably doesn't help you!

Wow Ken!

I wonder how much is left in the book budget for the year!!!! (Why is there no rubbing hands gleefully in the smiles?)

There is certainly south Irish blood, and old old very old Norwegian viking blood in my veins, what other concoctions are mixed in amongst that I would be very interested to know.

As for atropos, please explain, I failed french, and in 1978 they were not in mood to let me try Latin for fun.

Cheers to both of you.

Jim

 

[Surreybirder]

As for atropos, please explain, I failed french, and in 1978 they were not in mood to let me try Latin for fun.



Jim

1973 Death's-head Hawk-moth Acherontia atropos
Ken

 

[Wandered Scot]

Ah!

Thanks Ken, I think I should have stayed in bed today.

Jim :egghead: