Who Defines the Scientific Names? (1 Viewer)

[jollydragon]

Who can answer this question more simply and clearly:
What should someone do when he finds a new bird, wants to name it and has others accept the name? What's the process, where to apply or submit and who is the contact?
Thank you!

 

[Stoggler]

Red-crowned Cranes are an important part of Chinese culture from ancient time. We often call them respectfully as Xianhe, that is Angel Crane in English. 'Red-crowned Crane' is chinese scientific name in China. Because of its importance in Chinese culture, the Red-crowned Crane was selected by the National Forestry Bureau of the People's Republic of China as its only candidate for the national animal of China. But this decision was deterred because the Red-crowned Crane's Latin name translates as "Japanese Crane"(Please refer to the link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Red-crowned_Crane). The Red-crowned Cranes in Japan origin in China and in a very minor population compared to that in China. I'm confused how the international scientific name was defined as 'Grus japonensis'??? Who can help tell who define the scientific names? Why are they not reasonable, fair and objective???

I can't help thinking that you see a slight against China in the naming of this bird when there is no disrespect or slight intended. Others have explained how the scientific naming concept works but you seem more interested in dismissing those responses until you get the answer you want - posts such as:

China guy, Surreybirder, you two please read all of my posts in this thread and understand my opinion better first.

and telling people to read your first post to understand your opinion is just dismissing others opinions and their VERY valid responses to your query.

You seem to be missing the point that people are making - individual people who first describe a new species get the privilege to give it a scientific name. Some people chose to give a scientific name after the place they found the species. There is (usually) no politics, no (xenophobic) bias, and no disrespect in that process. So what if the scientific name of one bird refers to Japan even though there are more of that species elsewhere? The scientific name does not refer to where the bird is most common, or cultural considerations - it's merely a name to allow people across the world to distinguish between different species. That's all. Nothing else.

So please don't feel offended if you think there is some PETTY anti-Chinese sentiment in the name of one particular bird, as that could not be further from the truth.

 

[Gretchen]

Who can answer this question more simply and clearly:
What should someone do when he finds a new bird, wants to name it and has others accept the name? What's the process, where to apply or submit and who is the contact?

About the scientific paper, that's a text written by scientists for scientist ... where they describe the new bird in very detailed way (colours, measures, habitat, voice) and compare it to other similar birds etc. And in this paper they also propose a name. Here you can see such an example for a bird recently discovered in Lao: http://www.orientalbirdclub.org/publications/forktail/25/WoxvoldDuckworthTimmins-Bulbul.pdf

So, you write a paper like the one mentioned above. Then you find a scientific publication willing to publish it. If everyone agrees that this species has not been described before, then the name you propose is permanent - all scientists, everywhere, use it.

Science is a big system - even for birds there is no one authority for the whole world - so there is just general agreement between scientists. Because there is no final authority, there is no one to appeal to, and no one with authority to make a change in a bird's name. This is why the name is permanent. These permanent names make communication across languages and over decades and even centuries possible. Actually, this way of working by consensus is true in many scientific activities.

PS Jollydragon, I am oversimplifying a little, of course there is controversy in science as well. But conventions ("rules" that people use to organize their work, like creating and using names) are extremely important in science.

 

[edenwatcher]

Latest info from Birdlife suggests as many red-crowned cranes in Japan as in China. So no problem with scientific name.
If you want a contradiction try Fregata minor for Great frigatebird.

Rob

 

[Stoggler]

If you want a contradiction try Fregata minor for Great frigatebird.

Rob

Or Puffinus Puffinus for the...Manx Shearwater!

 

[wintibird]

Who can answer this question more simply and clearly:
What should someone do when he finds a new bird, wants to name it and has others accept the name? What's the process, where to apply or submit and who is the contact?
Thank you!

As said above, you got many good answers and comments. If you don't want to understand why do you ask?

André

 

[jollydragon]

So, you write a paper like the one mentioned above. Then you find a scientific publication willing to publish it. If everyone agrees that this species has not been described before, then the name you propose is permanent - all scientists, everywhere, use it.Science is a big system - even for birds there is no one authority for the whole world - so there is just general agreement between scientists. Because there is no final authority, there is no one to appeal to, and no one with authority to make a change in a bird's name. This is why the name is permanent. These permanent names make communication across languages and over decades and even centuries possible. Actually, this way of working by consensus is true in many scientific activities.

Thank you very much, Gretchen. You really get the point of my question.

PS Jollydragon, I am oversimplifying a little, of course there is controversy in science as well. But conventions ("rules" that people use to organize their work, like creating and using names) are extremely important in science.

Thanks for the kind comment. Know I learned why the name is still it until now and it's impossible for me to ask for a modification or update.

 

[jollydragon]

All friends posting here, thanks for your efforts. I know "Latin name" is a kind of Roman naming conventions and called formally as "binominal nomenclature"(especially in zoological circles).The essence of it is that each species name is in Latin and has two parts, so that it is popularly known as the Latin name of the species, although this terminology is avoided by biologists and philologists, who prefer the term scientific name. The binominal nomenclature scheme uses only the genus name and the specific name or epithet which together form the species name. I also know Birds don't care about their names. But they are named by human beings. Now it's human who care about the names and is talking with one another. I even know you believe the naming method is reasonable because it's a consensus, because it's already there for centuries and because you are accustomed to it. I can understand your opinions from your perspective. Why can you not from mine, but just show yours that I have gotten?

Now let me show my thinking more clearly. I know it's impossible to modify existing scientific names and I just hope the naming method be more reasonable in future. Why do most of you think it's reasonable but me? You know the scientific name is used not only among scientists but also a lot of normal people. Most people don't know Latin and it appears no problem. But Latin names are translated literally frequently into English which is an international language and thereby understood by lots of people all over the world. I believe English speakers can easily think of the meanings even from the Latin words, "chinensis" and "japonensis". But it's better for 'Oriolus chinensis' to be normally translated to 'black-naped oriole' instead of 'Chinese Oriole'. It's also better for 'Cissa chinensis' to be normally translated to 'Green Magpie' instead of 'Chinese Magpie'. However, 'Grus japonensis' is often translated to 'Japanese Crane'. How can you say there's no misleading by the name? Ok, if there's not misleading, why can't the Red-crowned Crane be recognised as the National Bird of China just since it's name now that the bird is so important in Chinese culture? Do you really understand my point? Don't you really think my point is a little rational?

 

[jollydragon]

Any new reviewers, please at least read my posts at #1 and #28. Thanks.

 

[dalat]

Do you really understand my point? Don't you really think my point is a little rational?

I think everybody understands your point, but your point is certainly not rational. What many people have patiently tried to explain to you is that if you would look at the matter rationally, you would see that a name is just a name, and that there is no reason why one should be bothered about it.

You however, for emotional reasons, have a dislike for the "Japonensis" in the name of the crane. I guess everybody accepts your position, but you cannot expect that everybody shares or sympathizes with your position. I personally would appreciate if you would be able to share the relaxed attitude of your compatriot in post #5.

Florian

 

[wintibird]

. How can you say there's no misleading by the name? Ok, if there's not misleading, why can't the Red-crowned Crane be recognised as the National Bird of China just since it's name now that the bird is so important in Chinese culture? Do you really understand my point? Don't you really think my point is a little rational?

I do think you're mixing up two things. There is no translation of scientific names into English names. Why the Red-crowned Crane is called Grus japonensis is clear. Common English names are something else. The "official" English name is Red-crowned. Japanese Crane was also used and so was the term Manchurian Crane. Many species have different common names (not only in English) which are sometimes misleading. Also here, mind where the names evolved. As the first description was from a Japanese specimen the name Japanese Crane seemed appropriate. Over time the two other names were used too and finally a decision was made to use Red-crowned Crane.
Over a long period there was no "authority" for English names. Some species had just one, others up to five or more different ones. Nowadays the International Ornithological Congress tries to clear things (http://www.worldbirdnames.org/). In their list there is no such thing as a Japanese Crane but only a Red-crowned Crane.

The question why this bird can't be choosen as National Bird of China because of a 125 year old scientific name we can't answer. This question has to be asked in your country.

André

 

[birdboybowley]

Excellent postings Florian & Andre

 

[fugl]

Ok, if there's not misleading, why can't the Red-crowned Crane be recognised as the National Bird of China just since it's name now that the bird is so important in Chinese culture? Do you really understand my point? Don't you really think my point is a little rational?

Well, like others here, I believe I understand your point of view alright, but I’m just not very sympathetic to it. Nationalism is a potent force but I think it should be resisted in this case & that you (& the Chinese National Forestry Service) are taking the “symbolical” significance of Grus japonensis altogether too seriously. As has been repeatedly stressed by contributors to this thread, scientific names are simply labels with no inherent meaning of any kind. To get some perspective on this, I wonder if you’re aware of how downright silly some scientific names are (see http://www.curioustaxonomy.net/index.html for examples). Nobody seems to worry about these.

As far as future scientific naming practices are concerned, what do you propose?. Some sort of vetting committee, making sure that all new names are “fair”, “objective” & “reasonable”? Somehow I doubt if that would be a very fun committee to serve on & my guess is that few professional biologists would want to have anything to do with it. But I’d bet there would be no shortage of advocacy groups with a thousand different agendas who would jump at such an appointment.

 

[Surreybirder]

China guy, Surreybirder, you two please read all of my posts in this thread and understand my opinion better first.

I have read all your posts. I did not mean to cause any offence. I can understand that with the history between China and Japan, the name japonensis is problematical. But I think that it is impossible to change any existing scientific names without the whole system unravelling. As has been said, you can imagine the endless in-fighting that it could lead to.
Ken

 

[davercox]

To get some perspective on this, I wonder if you’re aware of how downright silly some scientific names are (see http://www.curioustaxonomy.net/index.html for examples).

Thanks for that link, great stuff. I did see this on there in the "Rules" section :
"Description - After 1930, new names must come with a description (or reference to one) telling what the name means."
Does this imply some sort of vetting of meanings ? if so, then maybe the OP's views do have some support ...

 

[Dong Bei]

Jollydragon, you asked for my opinion about this thread and here it is:

It looks like you've had answers to your questions about ten times by ten different people all saying the same thing. If I were you I would now be asking another question-->Why can't the government name this bird as the national animal of China? Just because it has some small connection to the word Japan in Latin?

Surely there are bigger problems (especially in the area of conservation) that deserve our attention. (See Chinaguy's post in number 6)

Dong Bei

 

[xiaoming]

HI,
I don't think name is a great problem. That vote you mentioned was just a internet vote. I believe that the center goverment don't have the demand to choose national bird, so does national flower. It's not only the name problem but also the economic problem. Many botany professors adviced to choose national flower, such as, Tree Peony(Paeonia suffruticosa) but after many years we don't have national flower. Besides Cranes, many bird can be national bird, for example, Golden Pheasant, Paradise-flycatcher and Magpie. They all very important in our culture and may more common in paintings in Summer Palace and many other old buildings. We also can choose Cranes as our national bird, not limited species but a general name.

I agree with Tom(Dong Bei). The biggest problem now is "whether these species also exist when people want to choose them".

 

[Pete Mella]

Latest info from Birdlife suggests as many red-crowned cranes in Japan as in China. So no problem with scientific name.
If you want a contradiction try Fregata minor for Great frigatebird.

Rob

Post #4 on this thread makes a good point about gulls too!

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=148537

As everyone's said, despite a bit of confusion or perceived inappropriateness Latin names need to stay the same to keep order. If they got changed due to perceived offense then they're going to render text books obsolete and probably offend someone else in the process (how would the Japanese feel about the "snub" of the cranes being changed to chinensis?)

Slightly OT, I remember reading about scientists who named two slime moulds with the specific names bushi and rumsfeldi. It may be they considered this to be a great honour, but then again...

 

[jollydragon]

The "official" English name is Red-crowned. Japanese Crane was also used and so was the term Manchurian Crane. ... Over time the two other names were used too and finally a decision was made to use Red-crowned Crane.
...Nowadays the International Ornithological Congress tries to clear things (http://www.worldbirdnames.org/). In their list there is no such thing as a Japanese Crane but only a Red-crowned Crane.

It's great. Yes, I found 'Japanese Crane' is also re-directed to 'Red-crowned Crane' on wikipedia. So I believe the official is considerate that 'Japanese Crane', 'Chinese Oriole' and 'Chinese Magpie' are really misleading.

 

[jollydragon]

I can understand that with the history between China and Japan, the name japonensis is problematical.

You are correct for the history. But not correct for my opinion because the history isn't related to this topic. I've told I even don't think it's good to call 'Chinese Oriole' and 'Chinese Magpie'.

As has been said, you can imagine the endless in-fighting that it could lead to.

Here's no fighting and that's why the discussion can continue here. I'm just discussing and learning from all of you.