Would you buy a top shelf alpha Swaro, Zeiss, Leica or Nikon "MADE IN CHINA?" (4 Viewers)

[brocknroller]

Would you buy a top shelf alpha Swaro, Zeiss, Leica or Nikon "MADE IN CHINA?"

First, to learn how this thread came about, please read this post:

Volvos Made in China

The basic gist is that Volvo, a premium Euro brand was sold to a Chinese company, which is thinking about changing the image of the brand to make the vehicles bigger and flashier to compete with similar models from Mercedes, Audi and BMW for Chinese buyers. The Swedish CEO of Volvo thinks that Americans will accept Chinese-made Volvos the way they did Chinese-made cell phones. Huh? You don't flash your cell phone at the country club the way you do your Volvo.

The three reasons I cited for buyers wanting to buy Volvos are somewhat similar to the three reasons alpha buyers buy Swaro SLCs/ELs, Zeiss FLs/HTs, Leica BRs/HDs and Nikon EDGs:

(1) They are robustly built.

(2) They are "stylish" and "high quality," because they contain the latest advances in optics. Also, they are not only aesthetically appealing to look through, but to look at (perhaps more so than Volvos).

(3) Satisfies the urge to own the "latest and greatest."They are prestigious, premium brands "Made in Europe."

If Volvo can be bought out by a Chinese company, then perhaps so could an alpha optics brand. Particularly, Leica, which was teetering on bankruptcy a few years ago, and which has been slow to come out with a new top of the line bin to compete with other top shelf alphas. Ripe for a hostile takeover from a company in Beijing?

I know some people balk at the hypothetical, but with Volvo moving its manufacturing to China, and many entry-level and even some mid-tier bins being Made in China, I think we need to at least consider the possibility that at some point, the top shelf bins might move over there. It could prevent the ever more costly alphas from becoming a "boutique brand," or it could totally flop (that is, early arguments about the Terra ED as "trashing the brand" will prevail).

What say ye, binofans? Would you buy a top shelf alpha if it were "Made in China?" Please explain.

Brock

 

[ceasar]

Does China know how to make High End luxury products?

Does China know how to sell High End products?

Does China currently make anything like this that are now for sale in the West?

Where would a prospective purchaser go to buy one? Certainly not in Wal Mart where they might be be found in shrink wrap. How will China locate dealers to sell them and more importantly how will they negotiate with the dealers? China will have to sell more than top end binoculars and Volvos to disabuse buyers of the perception that China is first of all the home of sweat shop industries which keep the great outlet stores of America and the rest of the West rolling in dough!

Bob

 

[perterra]

Does China know how to make High End luxury products?

Does China know how to sell High End products?

Does China currently make anything like this that are now for sale in the West?

Where would a prospective purchaser go to buy one? Certainly not in Wal Mart where they might be be found in shrink wrap. How will China locate dealers to sell them and more importantly how will they negotiate with the dealers? China will have to sell more than top end binoculars and Volvos to disabuse buyers of the perception that China is first of all the home of sweat shop industries which keep the great outlet stores of America and the rest of the West rolling in dough!

Bob

I agree with what you say, but I dont think China cares what we think, they know that the majority of consumers could care less about social conditions of the workers if it doesnt directly affect our ability to buy a 4,000 sq ft house and buy the kids an expensive car. All they would need is good marketing, and we would fall all over ourself to get to use their product. We be gullible like that. They would just buy a company outright and use the current distribs

 

[Binoseeker]

The Japanese started copying some western technology/products. Now they can make nice stuff by their own. The Lexus cars (made by Toyota), do you think they are in the same league as BMW, Mercedes Benz etc ? The japanese made KOWA TSN-883 scope is competing at alpha level, I think, so they can make very good optics. Made by KOWA and ,I think, made in Japan.

If the TSN-883 was manufactured in China, would you have paid the same premium price as if it was manufactured in Japan, with same quality at both places ?

Now China is manufacturing/copying products similar to the outline of TSN-883 and with swaro-like EP.

The level of second hand prices on expensive optics maybe give us a clue to if a product is alpha-worthy, a slow decline in price compared to others, in time collectors expensive items ?

 

[Chosun Juan]

The world changed dramatically yesterday folks ..... too bad you missed it!







Chosun :gh:

 

[Torview]

I have`nt come to terms with New World wines yet.

 

[brocknroller]

Does China know how to make High End luxury products?

Does China know how to sell High End products?

Does China currently make anything like this that are now for sale in the West?

Where would a prospective purchaser go to buy one? Certainly not in Wal Mart where they might be be found in shrink wrap. How will China locate dealers to sell them and more importantly how will they negotiate with the dealers? China will have to sell more than top end binoculars and Volvos to disabuse buyers of the perception that China is first of all the home of sweat shop industries which keep the great outlet stores of America and the rest of the West rolling in dough!

Bob

Bob,

It's not about "now," it's about the future, but near-term, 10, 15, 20 years.

I'm sure you are old enough to remember your parents asking the same questions about Japan.

Q. Does Japan know how to sell High End products?

A. Not when I was a kid (they made cheap toys), but they do now. Lexus, Infinity, and Acura.

Q. Does Japan currently make anything like this that are now for sale in the West?

A. I remember my boss in the mid-1980s drove a late '70s tiny, manual transmission tin box called a Corolla, which his boss called "The Death Trap." I dove it once and feared for my life! When I bought a Honda Civic in the late 1980s, Consumer Report named it the TOP safety pick. That's 10 years after my boss's "Death Trap." Quick progress. Toyota now outsells GM in vehicles worldwide!

Who would have thunk it in the 1970s? "Who's going to want to drive those tiny "Jap" cars?" After a couple gas crises in the 1970s that found U.S. motorists waiting in long gas lines and rationing even and odd license plates for fill ups every other day, those Japanese cars with their tiny engines and great gas mileage suddenly became sought out by consumers. Not by my boss's boss, he drove a Bentley, but by many of the rank and file who worked for the company. Slowly but surely, those Chevy, Ford and Chrysler behemoths that used to fill the parking lot were replaced with Japanese cars. For me, it was selling my '68 Dodge Charger, and buying a Datsun (Nissan) 240 Z.

Japan rapidly advanced from a broken, battered post-war country to an industrial giant in 20 years. China is advancing even faster. Dominating the low end product line is just the first step like it was with Japan.

You enjoy reading history, here are a couple articles you might like to read on the subject:

China - An Economic Giant?
Singapore Senior Minister Lee Kuan Yew talks about China's history and future at Global Forum

Why is China Growing So Fast?

Anyway, you never answered my question, I suppose because you couldn't get passed the basic premise, i.e., that China might be capable of manufacturing luxury goods.

Brock

 

[Torview]

I'm given to understand China has a major problem with a rapidly ageing population which will temper the economic growth in the long term, in fact Germany has the same problem and unless the birth rate rises there they will be culturally extinct in three to four generations.

 

[perterra]

Bob,


Anyway, you never answered my question, I suppose because you couldn't get passed the basic premise, i.e., that China might be capable of manufacturing luxury goods.

Brock

I didnt answer either, yes China can manufacter luxury goods, so can India Pakistan or any of the other "stans". The problem will be if they can do it without stepping in something on the way up. They arent making friends in many places.

 

[edwincjones]

yes

assuming it meets the expected quality control for the item in question

edj

 

[Sancho]

I lived in China in ´88-´89, and in the fairly remote area I was in, it was hard to get batteries for my torch when the electricity failed. I was there again in ´93-´94, and it was changed beyond recognition. In 2012, on a visit to my in-laws, the same area was like a different planet - the local rural earthen-floored restaurants had become massive internet cafés, the local village a thriving (rather ugly) town. Perhaps a Terrible Beauty was born in some ways, but if the Chinese are going to make Swaros or Leicas or Lexus, it´s not for us barbarians, but for the Chinese market. Whether we approve or not is largely irrelevant.

 

[brocknroller]

I didnt answer either, yes China can manufacter luxury goods, so can India Pakistan or any of the other "stans". The problem will be if they can do it without stepping in something on the way up. They arent making friends in many places.

They made a friend in Russia by signing a $400 billion natural gas deal last week. That could hurt U.S. LNG exports, a topic that I'm writing about. In a global economy, you can't excel economically and not step on somebody's toes, because markets are interrelated. Heck, that's even true of executives on the climb up the corporate ladder. It's the way of the world. I don't like it, but maybe it's because I'm on the bottom rung always getting my fingers stepped on. :-C

If a Chinese company reverse engineered a Swaro 8x42 SLC-HD and sold it at half the price, would you buy one? I probably still couldn't afford it at half the price, but if I could, I would buy one, assuming the quality was very good.

Are we not both entered in the Prime ED contest? That's ZR's EL, "Made in China."

Brock

 

[ceasar]

Brock,

I can't predict the future. I can tell you that the near term is always a long way away and hind sight was not too long ago. Senior Minister Yew can't predict it either. Do you know any journalists who can? Or Economists? Japan is a small insular country, culturally much different than China which is huge. What worked for Japan will not necessarily work for China.

Lee Kuan Yew ran a police state on a small island in order to turn it into an economic miracle. Will those policies work in China?

As for your question: Why should anyone have to explain why they would buy an Alpha from anybody? In the big scheme of things it's not that important.

And there is no question that China has the capability to manufacture luxury goods. They have had it for a long time. Their political question is will they? And if they do will they also sell them in China? Their biggest concern has always been how they can keep everyone fed and under control.

And you should know that politics and geopolitics will trump economics every time. It's human nature.

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/MID-02-281013.html

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/CHIN-01-190514.html

Bob

 

[perterra]

They made a friend in Russia by signing a $400 billion natural gas deal last week. That could hurt U.S. LNG exports, a topic that I'm writing about. In a global economy, you can't excel economically and not step on somebody's toes, because markets are interrelated. Heck, that's even true of executives on the climb up the corporate ladder. It's the way of the world. I don't like it, but maybe it's because I'm on the bottom rung always getting my fingers stepped on. :-C

If a Chinese company reverse engineered a Swaro 8x42 SLC-HD and sold it at half the price, would you buy one? I probably still couldn't afford it at half the price, but if I could, I would buy one, assuming the quality was very good.

Are we not both entered in the Prime ED contest? That's ZR's EL, "Made in China."

Brock

I'm not talking about economically stepping on toes, but more of a geography grab stepping on toes. So far they are crossed up with Japan, Vietnam and the Philippines. It's not impossible to think they may make a land grab ala Russia and end up on getting crossed with several more countries. They seem to misread their neighbors on occasion.

I dont see me buying one, for one thing I dont think it would be half price. I really dont have a problem with made in China, I have more of a problem with companies who capitalize on the backs of the poor by not paying a living wage. The people who promote sweat shops while lining theirs and wall streets pockets.

 

[Holger Merlitz]

I lived in China in ´88-´89, and in the fairly remote area I was in, it was hard to get batteries for my torch when the electricity failed. I was there again in ´93-´94, and it was changed beyond recognition. In 2012, on a visit to my in-laws, the same area was like a different planet - the local rural earthen-floored restaurants had become massive internet cafés, the local village a thriving (rather ugly) town. Perhaps a Terrible Beauty was born in some ways, but if the Chinese are going to make Swaros or Leicas or Lexus, it´s not for us barbarians, but for the Chinese market. Whether we approve or not is largely irrelevant.

I agree. In fact, Leica Sport-Optics could be the first high-end binocular maker that will be owned by a Chinese company and then exclusively producing in China. In 5 years perhaps? Leica is very popular in China (mostly due to the M camera) and there are those Leica stores coming up in many of the larger cities.

In principle, the Chinese optical industry would be ready to move high-end. They have years of experience, some have skilled workers and the machinery which would allow them to boost up the performance level. The quality control had to improve a lot, but that could be done by foreign inspectors for a while until the procedures are standardized. It is just that the market hasn't asked them to do that. The low cost mass production for Walmart simply generates lots of more money than a few luxury items. So far, there is no request for higher priced binoculars made in China.

I have been visiting Kunming earlier this year, and we were discussing all kinds of interesting projects regarding new binoculars. They told me that they really would like to move up to higher levels, but that none of their international dealers had interest to try that. On the Chinese market, Chinese products, even if they are good, have a difficult time. The customers rather want to show up with luxury foreign products (just as Leica), since they are not just asking for quality, but for prestige brands. So it is more likely that China will simply buy these brands rather than trying to establish their own.

Cheers,
Holger

 

[cycleguy]

China might just buy the companies... and not move production to China.

Then you will be buying a China alpha ... manufactured somewhere other than China.

On the other hand, if the US is a nation in decline ... fewer and fewer of us are going to be able to afford an alpha. :C |>|

CG

 

[brocknroller]

China might just buy the companies... and not move production to China.

Then you will be buying a China alpha ... manufactured somewhere other than China.

On the other hand, if the US is a nation in decline ... fewer and fewer of us are going to be able to afford an alpha. :C |>|

CG

You'd never know that from all the alpha owners on BF, but your comment gets us back to perterra's statement: "I really dont have a problem with made in China, I have more of a problem with companies who capitalize on the backs of the poor by not paying a living wage."

That statement might well apply to many U.S. companies:

American Workers Are More Productive, But Their Wages Are Flat, And In Some Cases, Lower

We're seeing some manufacturing coming back to the U.S., in large part to be closer to cheap sources of energy (natural gas) and raw materials (natural gas liquids, particularly ethane to make ethylene and polyethylene), but also because Chinese wages are on the rise, whereas U.S. wages are flat or lower than they were 5 years ago.

This means that we might see a "Made in USA" sports optics again even though the companies that own them will be Chinese.

Brock

 

[perterra]

You'd never know that from all the alpha owners on BF, but your comment gets us back to perterra's statement: "I really dont have a problem with made in China, I have more of a problem with companies who capitalize on the backs of the poor by not paying a living wage."

That statement might well apply to many U.S. companies:



Brock

I think American companies execs driven by stock prices and bonuses are the biggest culprits.

I doubt Chinese owners of a company would be any worse than a holding company that would strip assets and break it up into a bunch of one time sells then walk away leaving a shell with more debt than it will ever gain.

 

[brocknroller]

I agree. In fact, Leica Sport-Optics could be the first high-end binocular maker that will be owned by a Chinese company and then exclusively producing in China. In 5 years perhaps? Leica is very popular in China (mostly due to the M camera) and there are those Leica stores coming up in many of the larger cities.

In principle, the Chinese optical industry would be ready to move high-end. They have years of experience, some have skilled workers and the machinery which would allow them to boost up the performance level. The quality control had to improve a lot, but that could be done by foreign inspectors for a while until the procedures are standardized. It is just that the market hasn't asked them to do that. The low cost mass production for Walmart simply generates lots of more money than a few luxury items. So far, there is no request for higher priced binoculars made in China.

I have been visiting Kunming earlier this year, and we were discussing all kinds of interesting projects regarding new binoculars. They told me that they really would like to move up to higher levels, but that none of their international dealers had interest to try that. On the Chinese market, Chinese products, even if they are good, have a difficult time. The customers rather want to show up with luxury foreign products (just as Leica), since they are not just asking for quality, but for prestige brands. So it is more likely that China will simply buy these brands rather than trying to establish their own.

Cheers,
Holger

Holger,

Apparently, this is the reason why upscale stores such as neiman marcus and macy's are opening online stores for the Chinese:

Neiman Marcus to Macy’s Trend Into China as Far as Web: Retail

Interesting that you also see Leica as the alpha brand that is most likely to bought by a Chinese company. The question is if Leica and Volvo and other prestige brands will still be seen as desirable by the Chinese if they are "Made in China." It's like Groucho's old joke, "I don't care to belong to any club that will have me as a member."

From your comments and from watching a segment on "60 Minutes" about the Chinese middle class, it seems true that the Chinese are more prejudiced against items made in their own country than Americans are against "Made in China" products.

I remember when the "Made in China" sport optics were being aimed at hunters and some pulled out the old cliche "Better Dead than Red," but now if you read Optics Talk and 24hrcampfire, you'll find a lot of discussions about Chinese-made sports optics.

I think there's almost a fatalism that no matter what you buy these days, it's likely to have at least some parts "Made in China."

Brock

 

[St. Elmo]

No.