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Would you buy a top shelf alpha Swaro, Zeiss, Leica or Nikon "MADE IN CHINA?" (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter brocknroller
- Start date
winwinbino
Well-known member
Seems some Amercians still don't know much about goods produced in China and export to USA. Seen some mentioning of poor working conditions & so on. It's not 20 years ago.
Any factories in China (actually applicable all over the world) before manufacturing products for USA buyers have to undergo a thorough factory inspection, passed, then sign a "Code of Conduct" which stipulated all required conditions namely welfare, working hours, safety, human rights & wages, etc.
An appointed factory auditor will re-visit (sometimes unannouced visit) the facility form time to time to ensure everything is still in line.
So, don't you worry about the normal Chinese goods exported to USA are produced by the slaved labors except those importers buying from the grey market.
Any factories in China (actually applicable all over the world) before manufacturing products for USA buyers have to undergo a thorough factory inspection, passed, then sign a "Code of Conduct" which stipulated all required conditions namely welfare, working hours, safety, human rights & wages, etc.
An appointed factory auditor will re-visit (sometimes unannouced visit) the facility form time to time to ensure everything is still in line.
So, don't you worry about the normal Chinese goods exported to USA are produced by the slaved labors except those importers buying from the grey market.
Borjam
Well-known member
The main problem with "made in China" products is greedy brands who want to save too much.
You can manufacture high end stuff in China, it can be cheaper than doing it in, say, Germany or Finland, but, more critically, as Apple explained some time ago, the main advantage of China is the huge workforce available.
http://blogs.hbr.org/2012/10/why-apple-has-to-manufacture-i/
Also, stupid international trade laws can play a part. I remember, two years ago, when the Raspberry Pi was introduced. It's produced by a British foundation and they wanted to assemble it in the UK. Turns out it was not possible, because retard European law imposes a tariff on components per unit.
So, if you brought the individual components (some come from Chinese plants) to Europe for assembly by European workers, there was a hefty penalty, while a completely assembled card coming from China was just "one unit".
If the manufacturers know what they are doing I have no problem with a product manufactured in China. But don't confuse "manufacturing in China" with "outsourcing to China after an auction for the lowest price".
You can manufacture high end stuff in China, it can be cheaper than doing it in, say, Germany or Finland, but, more critically, as Apple explained some time ago, the main advantage of China is the huge workforce available.
http://blogs.hbr.org/2012/10/why-apple-has-to-manufacture-i/
Also, stupid international trade laws can play a part. I remember, two years ago, when the Raspberry Pi was introduced. It's produced by a British foundation and they wanted to assemble it in the UK. Turns out it was not possible, because retard European law imposes a tariff on components per unit.
So, if you brought the individual components (some come from Chinese plants) to Europe for assembly by European workers, there was a hefty penalty, while a completely assembled card coming from China was just "one unit".
If the manufacturers know what they are doing I have no problem with a product manufactured in China. But don't confuse "manufacturing in China" with "outsourcing to China after an auction for the lowest price".
Robert Wallace
Well-known member
History tells us that Brand is more important than country of origin, and this applies across the whole spectrum of consumer goods.
perterra
Well-known member
Robert
You are absolutely right. Audis are made all over the place and specifically in Hungary, Slovakia and Belgium but those models are accepted as true Audis.
Building a new premium brand is a long and rocky road: ask Lexus and Infiniti.
Lee
Zeiss has started down this road with the Terra. The conquest says Made in Germany, but there are threads on that only a small portion of them are actually made in Germany.
Do I wish they were more made in the USA? Absolutely, yes. Will this change in the future? Most likely not, but I crave high quality, long lasting products in general. I am willing to pay more for a made in the USA product. Hopefully, there will be more like me in the future and we will change from this throw away mentality.
I try my best to avoid China products, particularly food products. But it is nearly impossible to do in a lot of cases these days.....
Do I wish they were more made in the USA? Absolutely, yes. Will this change in the future? Most likely not, but I crave high quality, long lasting products in general. I am willing to pay more for a made in the USA product. Hopefully, there will be more like me in the future and we will change from this throw away mentality.
I try my best to avoid China products, particularly food products. But it is nearly impossible to do in a lot of cases these days.....
Really? Why food products in particular? Chinese food products constitute half my dietary intake, can´t get enough of them! (Not arguing, by the way, I´m just curious - obviously each consumer has the right to choose! I´m just particularly fond of certain sauces, spices, chillis and vegetables - especially "Ku-gua" (Bitter Melon?) and "Pak-Choi" (no idea what it´s called in English) that are imported from China, as well as bean-curd, black beans, and a whole range of preserved and tinned foodstuffs no available in the Asian shops here.
BTW, aren´t Leica Ultravid compacts made in Portugal? Nothing wrong with Portugal either, it´s just not Germany, and I don´t imagine Leica compact-buyers care too much either. Volkswagen Polo and Golf cars too, if memory serves me.
Also, OH´s Nissan Micra, which we assumed to be a Japanese car, turns out to have been made in France. No end of trouble with it, silly little parts that cost a fortune needing replacing. Most are sourced God-knows-where and made of plastic (I´m thinking of a particular doohickey for the wipers), whereas when Micras were made in Japan, these parts were made of metal and didn´t break.
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brocknroller
porromaniac
Andy,
Living in Southeast Asia, you bring a fresh perspective to our outdated notions of Chinese sweat shops. No doubt, there are still a lot of poor people struggling to get by among the 1,364,710,000 Chinese (which will go up a 100 by the time I finish this sentence). But the middle class is rapidly growing, and China has the second largest number of billionaires after the U.S. As someone mentioned earlier, China's biggest labor problem is an aging population due to their one child per family law. If they already haven't changed that law, I'm sure they will, but then as the population grows, we might see imperialist ambitions emerge, as someone mentioned earlier.
But when you have money, you don't have to take land or resources by force, you can buy them. Thousands of Chinese are now in Africa, mining natural resources and starting businesses.
China's economic invasion of Africa
I do wonder, however, how those appointed factory auditors missed all the safety code violations and child labor in garment factories in Bangladesh. Somebody dropped the ball and it cost lives.
Brock
perterra
Well-known member
I dont think it crosses all spectrums at the start. I think once it becomes evident that there is no alternative, then people just buy what ever is easy.
On another note, I dont think it's a fair example to compare Japan to China. Maybe you could compare perception of Japan of the early 50's to the perception of China today.
Japan decided pretty early on to offer an improved product, they made their mark on Japanese brand names, not on rebadged house brands for the world. Though they did plenty of rebadging, quality was how they made their mark. Sony, Toyota, Honda, Kawasaki, Datsun, Nikon, Pentax, Topcon, Praktica were all brands that made people say wow, this stuff is pretty good. While some are now much smaller or gone, some steam rolled their competition, and they did it with quality and innovation.
Sitting here now, I cant think of a single influential Chinese brand. I cant even think of a Chinese brand. Nothing.
So can China produce high quality that could be called top of class? Sure, no reason they cant. But for them to be taken seriously they will have to distance theirself from the Walmart business model and make their own way.
perterra
Well-known member
I wouldnt go so far as to say perceptions of workers conditions in China are completely outdated. Maybe it's a misconception, but the Foxconn thing made the news pretty big here. Do a google search on chinese workers conditions and there is plenty of reading. So I imagine it is improving, but I doubt many will be leaving Germany, England or America to take up factory jobs in China soon.
As for factory auditors, just like safety people in many plants in the US, they are not allowed to get in the way of profit.
With the lack of decent environmental and pollution laws, you don't know what might be in the food products made in China.
There have been recalls of painted items in child toys from China due to high lead content, doggie treats killing thousands of pets, etc.
I particularly worry about the contaminants in fish, fruits and vegetables.
I simply don't trust that their food products are safe for consumption...
"Does it really matter…?" The Chinese have made it matter.
Every time (yes, that's an absolute) I've purchased a product bearing a time-honored name having a well-earned reputation that had a history of U.S. or European manufacture that was made in China, it turned out to be a piece of junk. It mattered not whether it was garden equipment or power tools, all were sub-standard. I don't care to be a part of the experiment to see when the Chinese are going to do what the Japanese did.
So, as it stands now there is no "exactly the same as made in Germany" but rather a recognized logo on an inferior product.
Mike
A2GG
Beth
In 2010 lead was found in the paint of many designer brand handbags made out of vinyl material. All of the bags were manufactured in China. They tested various brands from Kohls, Target and a couple of other stores. A Tory Burch (high end) bag had the most lead (astonishingly high levels). In 2012 they followed up and re-tested the same designer's bags. There was an improvement , but some bags still contained lead (especially the brightly colored bags). So, it looks like China still has a long way to go in terms of safety and proper regulations. Our companies are to blame ultimately for trying to maximize profit by selling this stuff and not caring about the working conditions of foreign factory workers.
If you look hard enough there are still many small companies that make products here in the U.S. and Canada. I try to buy American made goods when I can. Who knows where the materials come from, but that's another story. I probably have a bunch of Chinese made stuff...it's unavoidable, as so much is made there now. But, I also try to buy second hand goods to 'recycle'. Much of my furniture in my little apartment is second hand.
Would I buy a Chinese made binocular? I had the inexpensive Yosemite which was made in China. I am unsure if I would have purchased the Trinovid if it were manufactured in China. Unlike the Ultravid, the Trinovid is currently manufactured in Portugal.
If you look hard enough there are still many small companies that make products here in the U.S. and Canada. I try to buy American made goods when I can. Who knows where the materials come from, but that's another story. I probably have a bunch of Chinese made stuff...it's unavoidable, as so much is made there now. But, I also try to buy second hand goods to 'recycle'. Much of my furniture in my little apartment is second hand.
Would I buy a Chinese made binocular? I had the inexpensive Yosemite which was made in China. I am unsure if I would have purchased the Trinovid if it were manufactured in China. Unlike the Ultravid, the Trinovid is currently manufactured in Portugal.
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brocknroller
porromaniac
Mike,
Good point, I've also found that some products from reputable name companies such as Black & Decker that were formerly made in the U.S. ain't what they used to be now that they are made in China, but they are cheaper. Like sneakers and jeans, you can find Made in USA tools, but you pay a premium for them. Not sure why, U.S. employees are far from the highest paid in the world and transportation costs are greatly reduced if your customers are in the U.S. Energy prices are also lower here.
You keep on hearing about manufacturers moving back to the U.S. It's already happening in Pennsylvania. We are not a "right to work for less" state, but we have cheap energy (natural gas), raw materials (ethane used to produce ethylene and polyethylene, key components in the manufacture of plastics, solvents, and other products), a skilled workforce, and we are the end users in the Northeast. When you add all that up, it might balance the increase in labor costs over manufacturing in China.
As for "Made in Germany," that might be a bad example, which is one of the reasons for posting this thread although I forgot to mention it in the OP. Made in Germany" today can be almost completely produced abroad but given their finishing touches in a German factory. The EU wants that label to be more restrictive:
Unpopular (with whom?) EU proposal
So how can you be sure your Leica or Zeiss sport optics are really made (as in manufactured, assembled and containing all parts from Germany)? You can't, unless the company makes full disclosure, which it's only going to do if it's favorable. Maybe we already have Chinese-made alphas! :eek!:
Brock
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Borjam
Well-known member
It really varies with the manufacturer, who is to blame.
Example 1: I have a pair of Tannoy professional studio monitors. Tannoy is one of those European manufacturers with a very long tradition of quality. Although my monitors are cheap (around 500 euro a pair) they sell very high end stuff.
After maybe four years one of them begun to develop a problem. I suspected dodgy electrolitic capacitors. Doing a search on a specialized forum, I found an amazing account by a forum user. Turns out some retard decided to fix power resistors (components that get very hot) to the printed circuit board using a sort of glue that, with time and heat, degrades and becomes conductive.
In some cases, no real damage has been done (depending on how conductive the bloody glue becomes) and you can just clean up the circuit board.
That I did using a screwdriver. I assembled it again and voila! Restored monitor. I did it in 2012 and I haven't had any more problems.
This is an example of a careless outsourcing. You call a Chinese manufacturer, send your circuit diagrams, ask for several samples, you are happy with the samples and, that done, you just order volumes not caring much what they are doing, where they are sourcing the components and what are they putting inside.
A responsible brand would have people at the Chinese plant (of course it's expensive!) and they would be in full control of the supply chain making sure that only the specified components are used. Of course it's expensive.
And that's exactly what I meant with "outsourcing TO" or "manufacturing in". I have seen many high quality goods very well manufactured in China. Maybe the labor costs are, say, 50% compared to the European Union? To that you must add the cost of having some of your people there, and of course freights, etc.
The problem is brands who don't want to spend on quality control and manufacturing and supply chain supervision, which is crucial.
At the end some manufacturers at least will learn. I'm waiting for a Tannoy salesman to come visit me at the club, and to tell the story of a Tannoy ex-customer.
Also, there are Chinese manufacturers beginning to manufacture and market their own products with their own name, not hiding the fact at all. I have some Chinese microphones that give amazing results for the price. Of course I won't compare a 200 euro SE Electronics microphone to a 2000 euro Schoeps. But the sound you get with the 200 euro mike is quite good actually.
They have to learn a lot about product marketing and packaging, which is very important to be perceived as a quality brand. The instruction manuals are pathetic (so it was the Spanish translation of an expensive Sony short wave radio manufactured in 1976), they usually offer very incomplete technical data (in my case not untrue, just careless), they make changes to the models, their websites can often contain incomplete information or just are not updated to the latest models... but the product is at least worth the money it costs. And with time they will get better.
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Borjam
Well-known member
I support those restrictions wholeheartedly. I don't mind at all if a good quality product is manufactured in Germany or Borneo. Of course, as long as it keeps the quality it should.
However, manufacturers must not be allowed to deceive the consumer. If it says made in Germany and all they have done in Germany is to attach a logo and put it into a box, well, that's outright deception.
But that's what the authorities must supervise and enforce. If they do their job of course.
brocknroller
porromaniac
When ZR first announced its Prime ED, someone on these forums who has some connection to the company (works their booths at shows?) said that the Prime ED was ZR's answer to the SV EL, and that the company considered making the bin as an open bridge roof, but then decided to go with the standard closed bridge "H" roof format. He didn't say why, but in light of the threat of litigation by Swarovski, which stopped Nikon from making the open bridge EDG I, that might have been at least part of it.
This might have been mentioned in the thread below, but it has over 370 posts and I don't have time to dig it out.
Review: ZEN Prime HD
Brock
