Torview
Well-known member
China mostly replicates, very rarely innovates.
-
Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.
Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
Would you buy a top shelf alpha Swaro, Zeiss, Leica or Nikon "MADE IN CHINA?" (4 Viewers)
- Thread starter brocknroller
- Start date
China mostly replicates, very rarely innovates.
edwincjones
Well-known member
Robert Wallace
Well-known member
My Olympus OM-D E-M5 a micro four thirds DSLR and a "top of the range model" when I bought it, is described as "Designed by OLYMPUS in TOKYO MADE IN CHINA".
Comparison with Volvo cars may be different because they are a relatively expensive product compared to cameras and binoculars, time will tell.
Comparison with Volvo cars may be different because they are a relatively expensive product compared to cameras and binoculars, time will tell.
I wouldn't buy it...half price or not. China might and surely can reverse engineer the process and reproduce a seemingly Alpha pair of bino.
The issue isn't what is on the outside of the product but what is on the inside...what is under the hood. I really feel that while the bino might look the same, the inner works would be cheapened and lack quality control. Besides, I doubt if 'service' after the sale would exist.
Also, in regards to the 'social conditions of their workers'...true, the rest of the world might not care but I do. And if this question is directed at me, than my opinion counts. I don't shop at Walmart and while I am sure I purchase goods from China (how can one not considering they make just about everything)....if given an option, I would not support the money going to China to support such poor worker conditions, and environmental hazards.
The issue isn't what is on the outside of the product but what is on the inside...what is under the hood. I really feel that while the bino might look the same, the inner works would be cheapened and lack quality control. Besides, I doubt if 'service' after the sale would exist.
Also, in regards to the 'social conditions of their workers'...true, the rest of the world might not care but I do. And if this question is directed at me, than my opinion counts. I don't shop at Walmart and while I am sure I purchase goods from China (how can one not considering they make just about everything)....if given an option, I would not support the money going to China to support such poor worker conditions, and environmental hazards.
eddy the eagle
Well-known member
Does it really matter where something is made.As long as the product is exactly the same as made in Germany for instance then it doesn´t matter to me where it´s made.It is the end result that matters.I did not buy an alpha for the prestige but for the view and handling....Eddy
perterra
Well-known member
I think more people are starting to care. But as noted above, some could care less
Last edited:
Robert Wallace
Well-known member
Not sure "made in China" necessarily equates to cheapness to the consumer if a top brand name is used. My Olympus camera was one of the more expensive models and my much cheaper Panasonic G3 body was made in Japan (but not the accompanying standard zoom lens). I should add I bought my Olympus camera because of it's outstanding reviews and was surprised when I opened the parcel that it was made in China. Doubt that it would have influenced my decision.
Brock,
There are other serious problems involved along with poor wages.
The Governor of Pennsylvania is taking steps to find more of those "cheap" sources of energy right here in Pennsylvania! The Governor just gave the Oil and Gas companies in the Marcellus Shale belt permission to drill for more "cheap" gas throughout PA's publicly owned State Park System. They are all listed alphabetically in the 2nd link below.
Take Cherry Springs State Park for instance. (Attention Cloudy Nights Aficionados). It has the darkest nights in Pennsylvania and it is reserved for people to go there and use their telescopes to view the night sky. You guys from Center County go there a lot. Do you know if there are plans to drill for Gas there? Or perhaps on private land nearby. Watch out for those burn off flares!
http://citizensvoice.com/news/corbett-issues-park-drilling-order-1.1691565
As you know, almost 1% of PA is State Park Land and although it is 33rd in size among the the 50 states only Alaska and California have more acreage in state parks. See the map and info here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Pennsylvania_state_parks
Maybe China will build a Binocular manufacturing facility right here in PA, perhaps 20 miles up the road from where I live, in the town of Duryea where Zeiss makes Schott Glass! Ya think!:smoke:
Of course Chesapeake Oil or some other American Drilling Company will have to sell out to China first and of course I am being facetious!
Never the less I am not enthused over these possibilities. I invite others to read further in the wiki link about Pennsylvania's park system.
Bob
Last edited:
brocknroller
porromaniac
Imans,
Good to see idealism is still alive and well in the USA. I held the same ideals when I was able to afford to, and when there were enough alternative choices available that when I did buy a foreign item, it was imported beer or wine. But alas, the world has changed as Chosun remarked above, and so have my personal fortunes.
German and Japanese companies have U.S. assembly plants, and Toyota and Honda make parts here as well, but a die-hard "Made in America" buyer would point out, as you did above with China, that those profits still go back to a foreign company, however, they also support American jobs here. With so much manufacturing going offshore, I think we should welcome manufacturing jobs regardless of where the company is headquartered.
Here's a list of American cars (and foreign cars) "Made in America." Rather limited choices for American vehicles.
Do You Know
Where Your Car is Made?
Check the label on the jeans you wear, chances are they are made or assembled in Mexico or Bangladesh where working conditions are worse than China. There are 10 brands of jeans that are "Made in America" but except for Glenn Beck's line, most of the names you won't recognize, because they are out there in Left Field:
10-american-denim-brands-that-arent-owned-by-glenn-beck
Click on the arrow near the top right of the photo to see all 10.
Ditto for the electronics in the computer you are using right now, the steel in your American made car, the wool in your winter coat (there are a few companies that use American-made wool, such as Woolrich here in Pa., but only in their upscale product lines), and I could go on and on and on with lists of products that are made all or in part in Mexico, Canada, or offshore. I bet you own plenty yourself even though you don't buy at Walmart.
The stores I have near me are Walmart, Kohl's, Target, Dick's Sporting Goods, Lowe's and Home Depot. They all carry items made in China. Some New Balance sneakers are Made in America, but most sneakers are made offshore, and the USA sneakers are the most expensive in the line, often $125 and up.
Unfortunately, today, consumer idealism is only for those well enough off to afford it..
It's not that I don't care about Chinese or Mexican or Bangladesh worker conditions and wages, but quite frankly, my own subpar worker conditions and wages that middle class Chinese would probably scoff at are more of a concern.
I'm far from alone, as I pointed out in another post about U.S. wages being stagnant, or in some cases, lower than they were 5-10 years ago. I also live in a town where the average age is 25, so wages outside of the university are relatively low and the wisdom that comes from age is often seen as a liability rather than as an asset. Companies want "malleable" workers they can shape into their own image. This is not mere rhetoric, I've been told this.
So while I am concerned with foreign labor practices, my sympathies are more with the working poor and the struggling middle class in this country. There's much improvement needed in the labor market right here in the US that requires our immediate attention and effort. I will let Brangelina, Bill Gates, Warren Buffet, the Koch Bros., Bezos, Bloomberg, Zuckerberg, and other millionaires and billionaires address foreign concerns, and I will do what I can to help people and wildlife locally. "Think globally, act locally."
End rant. You told me whether or not you would buy a Chinese alpha and why, and I thank you for your response. :t:
Brock
Last edited:
Brock
Translating this to cars, Chinese brands aren't attracting massive growth in China but for example, locally made Volkswagens are. The Chinese do seem to love brands and appear to accept those brands as being authentic even when made in China.
Back to your question. I would need to be convinced that the correct levels of quality assurance were applied to the product but in principle I cannot see a reason why I would not buy a pair of bins made in China, just because of where it was made.
I bought a Japanese-made Fender Stratocaster before the quality of Japanese-made guitars was well understood around the world. I got what I paid for, a medium quality guitar for a medium price. Now you can buy Fenders made in Japan or Mexico that are fantastic value for money. I am sure the same thing can happen with bins made in China, then Indonesia, then Brazil etc etc
Lee
Translating this to cars, Chinese brands aren't attracting massive growth in China but for example, locally made Volkswagens are. The Chinese do seem to love brands and appear to accept those brands as being authentic even when made in China.
Back to your question. I would need to be convinced that the correct levels of quality assurance were applied to the product but in principle I cannot see a reason why I would not buy a pair of bins made in China, just because of where it was made.
I bought a Japanese-made Fender Stratocaster before the quality of Japanese-made guitars was well understood around the world. I got what I paid for, a medium quality guitar for a medium price. Now you can buy Fenders made in Japan or Mexico that are fantastic value for money. I am sure the same thing can happen with bins made in China, then Indonesia, then Brazil etc etc
Lee
I can´t find it online, but check out a deleted scene from the movie "La Casa de Mi Padre", with Will Ferrell et al. It´s called "Pants" on the DVD (no, it´s not rude), and it involves a Mexican ranchero explaining the economics of the shift in trouser-production from the U.S. to China. Very, very funny. At least I think so. My OH says I have a stupid, childish sense of humour.
Pinewood
New York correspondent
Guilty as charged, Your Honour.
Of course it´s obvious, as a previous poster implied, if we were to remove from our homes everything made in China, there would be precious little left. I know our house would be bereft of clothing and plumbing, and most of the electronics (and indeed OH, which would have a devastating effect, not least on the culinary arts side). It will be interesting, if Chinese Optics manufacturers start producing "high-end" Euro-optics, to see if the new Chinese burgeoning middle-classes buy S/L/Z badged binos with "Made in China" written on them. I suspect they will, as I think the brand is what´s important. Meanwhile no-one seems too bothered that all the kids on the street play football (soccer) with balls made in China, or elsewhere in low-cost SE Asian countries. Even most of the hurling helmets worn at our local club are made in China.
stereotruckdriver
Well-known member
Interesting topic I better not comment don't want to ruffle to many feathers.
Bryce...
Bryce...
Ah go on, comment away. I think this ground has been well-covered in the past. It'also interesting to see the various perspectives from different countries- former manufacturing hubs v. SOE's. Very little manufacturing goes on here, so it's of no consequence from where we import anything, we'd be in the dark ages without trade, and we export little beyond agricultural produce, pharma, IT and Banking Crises. There's never been an Irish Binocular
. The view is obviously different from the U.S. Or Germany, but in any case I doubt that sports optics make up much of the GDP of any economy.
perterra
Well-known member
Ah go on, comment away. I think this ground has been well-covered in the past. It'also interesting to see the various perspectives from different countries- former manufacturing hubs v. SOE's. Very little manufacturing goes on here, so it's of no consequence from where we import anything, we'd be in the dark ages without trade, and we export little beyond agricultural produce, pharma, IT and Banking Crises. There's never been an Irish Binocular
Trade is good but I dont care to see sweatshop conditions being used by companies just to increase their bonus money. I think there is plenty of room for goods from everywhere. I dont agree with the walmart mentaility of a race to the bottom.
marinemaster
Well-known member
Steve Jobs proved that it can be done with a highly advanced electronics such as the idevice.
Binoculars are just mechanical devices. I am sure it can be done.
But likely it will not happen because of the "image/perception" factor.
Binoculars are just mechanical devices. I am sure it can be done.
But likely it will not happen because of the "image/perception" factor.
I think it's a safe bet that if a Chinese firm acquired a company such as Leica (Holger's hypothetical), then the negative perceptions of Chinese products in general would hurt the brand name in the marketplace. When I got myself a Leica M camera a couple of decades ago, it was common knowledge among Leica users that if you wanted a deal on used Leica cameras and lenses, then you ought to look around for stuff made by Leitz in either their Canadian factory or their Portuguese factory. Why? Because status conscious Leica-owners didn't want that stuff; they only wanted the stuff made in Wetzlar. And that depressed the prices, to the benefit of Leica-users (as distinguished from Leica-owners).
And this was before the internet became the force that it is today, where a few outspoken individuals can stir up a frenzy for or against whatever. I'm sure many of us remember the allbinos "torture-test" report from last year, where the Leicas infamously failed the water-proof test. If Leica had been Chinese-owned at that time, can you imagine the flame wars that would have erupted online?
Having said all that, I'd hope that Chinese firms concentrate their efforts on bins in the $500-$1000 range, because I think that's where the real action is.
And this was before the internet became the force that it is today, where a few outspoken individuals can stir up a frenzy for or against whatever. I'm sure many of us remember the allbinos "torture-test" report from last year, where the Leicas infamously failed the water-proof test. If Leica had been Chinese-owned at that time, can you imagine the flame wars that would have erupted online?
Having said all that, I'd hope that Chinese firms concentrate their efforts on bins in the $500-$1000 range, because I think that's where the real action is.
Last edited:
We're already at the point where we're seeing "Assembled in the USA", in the form of Meopta Meopro / Meopro HD binoculars and scopes, and possibly Bushnell Elite roofs too. What I take from this is that domestic assembly might be financially feasible for bins in the $500+ range, although likely with a certain premium over similar models completely made overseas. So then the question would become whether consumers would pay, say, a $100 premium to get the assumed quality control and jobs that comes with domestic assembly. Or, to put it another way, would we pay $700 (as opposed to $600) for a McKinley that was assembled in Oregon rather than China?
