Zeiss-ness: 60 hours with the Oberkochen 8x30 (1 Viewer)

Zeiss-ness [tz-ice'nsz]: the ineffable quality or property possessed by iconic products of the Zeiss optical company.

I am indebted to James Holdsworth for coining this term (I have taken the liberty of suggesting a definition) in relation to his 8x30B Oberkochen. I've now had the pleasure of spending over 60 hours [edit: I've added just under 22hr since beginning this highly subjective write-up] in the field, or more accurately on concrete as my birding revolves around watching city-living peregrines, with an older 8x30. I hope my thoughts might be of interest to members/readers of this fine forum.

This was purely a nostalgia purchase, as my birding requirements were pretty well met by more modern roof prism binoculars (SLC 8x30W mark II and Dialyt 10x40BGAT*P*). Having started off with porros, however, and especially after having being introduced to the joys of Birdforum, I really wanted to see what an 8x30 Zeiss West porro would be like to use. Recently such an opportunity presented itself, with the result that I now own an 8x30 (non-B) Oberkochen, serial number 533xxx.

An initial once-over found the image quality was very significantly degraded by significant hazing, so off it went to East Coast Binocular Repairs whom I had used for similar work previously. Gary at East Coast Binocular Repairs confirmed that it was manufactured in 1962, relatively early in the production run of this version of the Oberkochen porro. I received them back on June 13th and began using them the same day.

In the hand the binoculars are very compactly packaged and light (variously given as 480gr and 19.5 ounces/546 grams – mine weighs in at 507g on my electronic kitchen scale). Focus speed is fast, with less than one full rotation needed to take the focus wheel from lock to lock. Coatings are blue-purple. The leather strap attaches to the hinge arms (of which more later).

My expectations were that this would be a very well made device (descriptives I had read include “jewel-like” …) with a large sweet spot and excellent sharpness, but with a darker and yellower image than modern products.

Thank you for your review. Right at the moment I go pregnant with the idea to get a pair of Zeiss Oberkochen 8x30 porros.

Recently I got a pair of 8x30 from Krombach/Wetzlar (not to be confused with the beer brand of the almost same name "Krombacher").

More recently I placed the highest bit for a Spindler & Hoyer 8x30 and a vintage Nikon IF 7x50 porro.

Thanks! That was the first section of three but I didn't have time to edit the other sections and upload photos etc. Here's the second.

The birds I focus on must be observed at fairly long distances: it's not that you can't get relatively close to them but you want to stand off a bit as they can rake away over long distances and the many buildings in my area makes it easy to lose them. Closer observations take place at 250m to about 500m. At some locations the viewing distances are between 700m and 1.5km. Weather/light conditions have ranged from overcast mornings 15 minutes before official sunrise to full noon sun on cloudless days.

Let me get the main negatives I found out of the way first, more or less in order of their importance:

Strap attachment – I'll upload a photo when I get back. Very decidedly NOT the best concept ever thought up in Oberkochen!!! I have to push the straps forward at the point where they connect to the binocular with my thumbs, otherwise they will constantly and very annoyingly contact my nose and face. It took me quite a while to get used to this particular quirk. It is probably, all things considered, my number one issue with this binocular.

Colour cast – Noticeably yellowish (as has been mentioned by other users) when viewed side by side with a modern glass. This is something that I can accommodate to most of the time, but certain conditions (particularly days with poor air quality ie. smog) accentuate the yellow colour cast to an unpleasant level. On very bright clear sunny days, however, the touch of yellow seems to relieve the harshest bright highlights.

Veiling glare – becomes very apparent when the binocular is too close to the sun ca. 30-35 degrees to either side of a late afternoon sun. The binocular seems to contend well better with glare from bright objects/reflections as details of buildings on the far bank of the Thames (over 200m wide at the point I was observing from) were quite apparent despite significant glare from reflections off the river, just so long as the binocular was not pointed too close to the sun.

Internal reflections – Become apparent when the binocular is pointed too close to the sun and sometimes if bright sun is at your back.

Fogging, eye relief – The two are closely related as the binocular’s very short eye relief requires you to place it very close to your eyes. I experienced occasional light fogging, particularly at dawn – not enough to be a real issue at this time of the year, but I would expect this binocular to have significant issues with fogging/condensation in cold weather. This binocular cannot be used with glasses and (in common with all binoculars with short eye relief) can frustrate hugely if you are acquiring fast-moving targets by eye and must remove glasses before putting the binoculars to your eyes. I’m quite practised at this procedure and can successfully reacquire most of my targets, but not all, and it’s deeply frustrating to lose track of a bird that is on a flight you really want to follow ie. hunting. Where longer observing distances require you to be in your binoculars to acquire your targets, short eye relief is much less of a handicap since you will be in your binoculars most of the time.

Brightness or lack thereof – Noticeably darker than a modern glass.

Diopter – Diopter tension was too light. Gary at ECBR was able to increase this but the diopter is still not as firm as I would like it. It doesn’t give trouble in use, but sometimes moves around in my bag. (I use a beanie as a convenient soft carrying case).

Some observations re image quality:

Sharpness – Most users have stated this is one of the Oberkochen porro’s strongest points. The city environment gives you lots of opportunities to test sharpness at a range of distances and I had quite a lot of fun reading distant advertising boards. The Zeiss West is sharp enough that hand shake/wobble is the real limit to how well I can see fine details; when stabilized (propped up on a solid object) the main limiting factor becomes my own visual acuity. It is particularly sharp at shorter distances of 250m and less – resolution ability at longer distances is still good, but a little less so. More modern glass also cuts through distant haze better. The last two points may be the result of 1960s era coatings.

Field of view – This version of the 8x30 Oberkochen has the largest field of view (150m at 1000m) which, combined with its very good sharpness to the edge (as mentioned by others), makes for a very enjoyable viewing experience.

Colour rendition – pleasing most of the time (at least to my eyes) despite the yellow colour cast, most particularly at shorter distances of say 250m and less where the binocular is also very sharp. Beyond 500m or so colours can appear more washed out than they would in a modern glass.

Chromatic aberration – I tried various tests (leaves against bright sky etc). No CA apparent to my eyes in the sweet spot, very clean images.

Apparent depth of field – substantial, as with most 8x30s.

Other notes - The requirement to use it straight to one’s eyes results does have one upside – it results in a most immersive and enjoyable view, with very little of the stray light that creeps in when putting binoculars to one’s glasses. It also removes one more layer of glass from the equation which is never a bad thing optically. Image brightness was acceptable for my observations (including some stints that finished at 9.00 to 9.30pm). Performs surprisingly well tracking birds over difficult backgrounds.

Handling/Ergonomics

Porro prism binoculars, in my hands, do not “point” as well as roof prism designs and I also find roofs easier to hold steady, especially when buffeted by wind. Both properties are a function of the barrels being closer together. That being said, the light weight of the Oberkochen makes it easy to hold and it is small enough for me to get a comfortable grip on – in fact it is so short and stubby that I have to be careful of dropping my fifth finger into the field of view. It did take me a while to figure out the best grip for this binocular, but I can now hold it steadily enough to be happy with it.

Eye placement – I personally did not find this binocular finicky in terms of eye placement, although the very short eye relief does require you to put the binocular right up to your eyes.

Focusing – the focus speed is too fast for my taste – I would have liked a slower focusing speed that would make it easier to tweak out every bit of the considerable sharpness this binocular can deliver. Focus wheel is easily accessible and focus tension is fine – positive feel and neither too heavily or lightly weighted.

Size/weight – This is one of this binocular’s strongest points. Small enough to easily fit into a jacket pocket and weigh hardly anything when carried in a rucksack.

Build quality

I did not disassemble the binocular and am not knowledgeable about its internal construction, which is highly regarded by most reviewers (gaskets to aid sealing, etc). I wouldn’t describe the exterior finish as jewel-like – the closest comparison I can make is to a well-made classic film camera – light yet solid and confidence-inspiring. It could not, however, be considered tough in the same way a SLC or a Conquest is.

Hi Patudo,

Thank you for this essay. It contains an awful lot of information; I've read all three parts closely, and enjoyed doing so.

But ...

Patudo said:

The requirement to use it straight to one’s eyes ... also removes one more layer of glass from the equation which is never a bad thing optically.

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... my sensibilities as a technogeek and amateur pedant jumped at this sentence. It sounds right, but it isn't, and I don't think it should be allowed to pass unchallenged.

It is indeed never a bad thing, unless the extra layer (of glass or optical plastic) provides a correction that is otherwise unavailable.

(1) People like me with significant astigmatism in their eyesight can have that corrected by their eyeglasses. Without that extra layer, the view through their binoculars will be worse.

Most people with only a spherical component to their optical prescription can of course use binoculars without their glasses, using the section of the focus wheel "beyond infinity" when necessary.

(2) But some people have a greater difference between their eyes' prescriptions than is permitted by the binocular's diopter adjustment.

Later,

John

Dr Owl said:

(1) People like me with significant astigmatism in their eyesight can have that corrected by their eyeglasses. Without that extra layer, the view through their binoculars will be worse.

Most people with only a spherical component to their optical prescription can of course use binoculars without their glasses, using the section of the focus wheel "beyond infinity" when necessary.


Later,

John

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Hello John and Patudo,

I have significant astigmatism. Lately, I have found that in bright sunlight, when my eyes have their narrowest pupil, I can use a binocular without my specs. Even in overcast skies, much less at night, I do not see sharp images.
On the other hand, not every binocular goes sufficiently past infinity for myopic eyes. Generally, binoculars marked 'B' for briller lack that facility.

Happy bird watching,
Arthur Pinewood :hi:

Pinewood said:

I have significant astigmatism. Lately, I have found that in bright sunlight, when my eyes have their narrowest pupil, I can use a binocular without my specs. Even in overcast skies, much less at night, I do not see sharp images.

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Thank you for that, Arthur. You have carried out more experimentation than I.

In the days before I could afford 'B' binoculars -- back when the label "alpha" was pronounced "Leitz 'n' Zeiss" -- I did not realize that binoculars could provide sharp images without vignetting. :eek!:

On the other hand, not every binocular goes sufficiently past infinity for myopic eyes. Generally, binoculars marked 'B' for briller lack that facility

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Once 'B' binoculars came within reach, I used nothing else; always with glasses, always with the eye cups folded down ... so never needed to check for focusing past infinity.

Sorry about the oversimplification, Patudo.

John

Pinewood said:

On the other hand, not every binocular goes sufficiently past infinity for myopic eyes. Generally, binoculars marked 'B' for briller lack that facility.

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Hi,

I would be astonished if german bins labelled B (for Brille = german for glasses) did have less extra focus travel beyond infinity due to that. I think this is more about having sufficient ER and fold down or twist up eyecups for use with glasses...

The only such model which comes to mind is old Zeiss 8x20B but on that they left out the diopter adjustment...

Do you have examples of models with reduced focus travel?

Joachim

I don't have a Leica BN, but isn't there a difference between the BA and BN.
The BN focuses closer, but does it focus as much past the infinity setting?

Binastro said:

I don't have a Leica BN, but isn't there a difference between the BA and BN.
The BN focuses closer, but does it focus as much past the infinity setting?

Click to expand...

Hi,

I don't know... but both are labelled B for Brille anyways...

Joachim

Binastro said:

I don't have a Leica BN, but isn't there a difference between the BA and BN.
The BN focuses closer, but does it focus as much past the infinity setting?

Click to expand...

Yes.

Happy bird watching,
Arthur :hi:

I'vergessen actually got both versions of the 8x30 porros, the one with the Erfle eyepieces and the B version. They are both interesting binoculars, and I'd love to see what they'd be like with modern coatings, especially the 8x30B.

I'll have some more comment when I'm back from holiday.

Hermann

Nostalgia is expensive and tedious (I know for sure). Almost all Oberkochen 8x30s ( I had non-B and have latest version of B) need an expensive service to be cleaned and recollimated.
A Nikon 8x30E2, SE8x32 or Habicht 8x30 will give much better views for little more money. Well I´m still waiting for my 8x30B to be serviced...

I have a Zeiss Oberkochen 8x30 (150m/1000m) which was produced in 1970 (SN 794xxx) and has been serviced only once seven years ago. It's still my favorite bin of all time, because nothing matches the mechanical precision and quality of this cute piece. Sure the transmission is weak compared with mordern coatings, I guess Dr. Gijs van Ginkel once measured 60%, but that's the one and only flaw IMHO (at least if you wear no glasses), which in practise doesn't matter during daytime.

Thanks for bearing with me and for sharing your thoughts! Tobias, I have to thank you for your review of the 8x30 non-B - it was a major factor in prompting me to obtain one myself.

I've added just under 15 hrs since my last post on this thread, and will attempt some closing thoughts:

While I would not like to rely on it as my sole birding binocular, the Oberkochen porro has some very good qualities and I have found it surprisingly rewarding to use. On paper (slight cringe - some UK forum members may know why…) most modern binoculars should outperform an early 1960s single coated porro, and indeed the ones I use do but the Zeiss West is still good enough optically for me. Its size and weight (approximately the same weight as a Swarovski CL) is one of its greatest advantages. It is a breeze to carry in to work and is probably the main reason for it being the binocular that is with me almost all the time. In terms of field performance, I can live with the darker image and yellow colour cast in most situations, negatives which are considerably outweighed by its sharpness, large sweet spot, wide field and in particular the view you get from those widely spaced objectives despite (or because of) it being necessary to use it without glasses. I have now considerably exceeded the 50 hours I planned to spend with it in order to give it a proper trial and find myself spending more time with this binocular than any other. What the designers of the 1960s were able to accomplish with the technology of the time still impresses me. It’s a great pity these porros were never produced with T* multi-coating which, if my reading is correct, was introduced the year after the 8x30B ceased production.

I thought it might be interesting to make some very brief comparisons with other 8x30s I've used:

Swarovski SLC 8x30WB (Mark II) – This is one of my main birding binoculars and one I'm very familiar with. Brighter, more neutral, weatherproof, tough, usable with spectacles, much more fogproof, a touch sharper, albeit field of view is slightly less – a good example of a quality modern roof. Superior in almost every respect, as expected for a product that is over 40 years more modern, and particularly where you need to quickly bring up, or come off, your binoculars. I am however finding the Zeiss West more enjoyable to use (at least under current summer conditions). Maybe it's the nostalgia factor.

Zeiss Jena 8x30W Jenoptem – I relied on this as my one of my main binoculars for nearly a year and became very familiar with it. Comparable to the Oberkochen in many respects (field of view) and has similar limitations (eye relief, fogging etc). Image is brighter, thanks to T3M multi-coating, and less yellow. The Zeiss West, however, is sharper, has a significantly larger sweet spot and is noticeably better built.

Chinese 62-8WYJ 8x30 individual focus – I used this for two or three days on a recent visit to Madeira, mainly spotting seabirds from a boat. Seemed to take a bit of getting used to (the pair I used may have been slightly out of collimation?) but image appeared brighter (probably the result of more modern coatings) and more neutral than either the Jenoptem or the Zeiss West. Solidly built, more so than the Jenoptem, though lacking the finesse of the Oberkochen. The reticle in the right barrel was a major negative - very distracting, particularly at sea.

Leitz 8x30 Binuxit – I had the opportunity to look through one of these briefly the same day I purchased the Zeiss West and really liked it. Excellent image, sharp (although I thought edge sharpness fell off more quickly), with a more neutral colour cast, and a little brighter, probably thanks to the less complex eyepiece design. Large oculars make for very easy eye placement, although I haven't really found this last to be a real issue with the Oberkochen. Build quality and finish are excellent, although it's slightly larger in size. I didn’t compare their respective fields of view.

Just thought I would pass along some information I’ve collected on this binocular as well as the Oberkochen Porros in general. The internal view below shows the two main innovations: the 6 element Kohler eyepiece and the “tele” objective with a wide air space. The eyepiece design can still be recognized in modified form in the Televue Panoptic eyeieces and in the eyepiece of Nikon's new $6000 10x50 WX.

Notice all the little red bits. Those indicate seals of various types, including a flexible bellows for the eyepiece tubes that allows the sealed eyepieces to slide freely.

The patents below seem to indicate that Horst Kohler was the main if not the only brain behind the design of the series.

https://www.google.vu/patents/US2764064

The first patent is for the objective design. Notice that a triplet was rejected only because of the higher cost. In the patent example the design reduced the physical focal length to 78.6% of the optical focal length.

http://www.google.vu/patents/US2814969

The second patent concentrates on the use of a flint glass for the prisms instead of a crown. I know from another source that the 10x50 used a flint, but I’m not sure about the 8x30.

https://encrypted.google.com/patents/US2846922

The third patent is for the entire optical system of the 8x30. No question that the objective, prism and eyepiece were all designed so that they only work properly when they are used together.

Henry

henry link said:

...
The patents below seem to indicate that Horst Kohler was the main if not the only brain behind the design of the series.
....
Henry

Click to expand...

He was the mastermind but he had a small team who helped him developing these famous binoculars, e.g. people like Helmut Knutti (he developed the wide angle eye piece of the B models). Other names were not mentioned because of political or personal reasons - it was a very difficult time those days for people in East and West Germany (Carl Zeiss Jena in the East and Zeiss Oberkochen in the West).