Revalations and the ZR binocular (1 Viewer)

I will probably be thrown off the site here for posting this but I feel its important that people who come to BF get honest information and not ultra biased opinion by associations from optic companies. This I believe compromises the spirit of BF....
Well it has come full circle with my question about the ZR fever on all the web sites. Now before I go further I find no fault with ZR themselves but with certain people that post about their product.
As you know I have questioned the all out ferver and, what looks to me, marketing campaign here on BF and other forums. It seems that at some point forum members, at least one member here, have started a cozy relationship with ZR and have not been forthright about this relationship. A regular poster (we'll call him SC) here and one who's opinion is valued by many has just stated openly on forums "I got the chance to meet the Zen Ray owner at the Northwest Sportsman's Show in Portland OR. Since then, we communicate via e-mail several times a month. When he began to contemplate the ED 2, I was asked to be part of a beta test group. I accepted the offer".... This individual has said to his defense that he was never paid and is not an employee of ZR..... Is this true? Maybe? Only he really knows I guess? But was there any gain? Did he receive discounted prices or trade allowances that were not made to the general public? I don't know but I'm not ignorant enough to not know that this is how things work! Typically if it smells bad, its bad!
Now this individual is pushing ZR like crazy and helping to convince people all over the world to buy ZR.....
I find this very disturbing!
There have been plenty of reps from companys that have come here and give advice but they have always been forthright with who they are and always recuse themselves from discussion of their products unless simple tech data or warranty service questions are posed.
I ask, if someone knows a owner of a optics company..... Emailes him/her several times a month..... Participated in a new product test group..... Would they be biased towards this new product? And if that someone came here and told all of you how great it was and how it was sooooooo comparable to optics even four times their cost would this be ethical? And if this someone tries to shout down anyone who starts to figure out what is going on would that be OK with the whole of the forum membership?
Maybe it is OK with most and they just see it for what it is and leave it alone? But I just can't do that, it's not truthful!
Beyond all the negative political reasons not to buy a Chinese bin, and there are a lot of political reasons not to buy a Chinese binocular, there are two serious issues at hand.
1) For someone to use this forum to dishonestly drive their product is both deceitful to and unethical to those who come to BF looking for honest evaluations and help in the Birding hobby.
2) The future of our hobby with high-end optics, in my opinion, depends upon enthusiast like ourselves to survive. And when cheap sales tactics sway opinion that there is no real need for high-end optics because less expensive optics do 99% of the same for 25% of the price we are in danger of losing long time players in the industry that really do drive technology. And in the end WE lose because the only option is cheap imitations made in China.

So lets sum this up.....
The question is? Is it OK for any optics company to solicit knowledgable people on the internet, start close relationships with them, and then the people go back to the forums and pitch their product with great ferver?

If I have offended anyone with this post I apologize in advance

Charles

CLRobles said:

The question is? Is it OK for any optics company to solicit knowledgable people on the internet, start close relationships with them, and then the people go back to the forums and pitch their product with great ferver?

If I have offended anyone with this post I apologize in advance

Charles

Click to expand...

It's a fair question, and the answer is clearly, absent disclosure of the relationship and the benefit that flows from that relationship, no (I know, I can't help it, but I'm a lawyer). That said, my take on Zen Ray binoculars is that they are truly special and a godsend for those of us who now find the alphas beyond our reach. I presently own 3 Zens: an 8 x 43 ED, 10 x 42 ZRS and 7 x 36 ED2. All are remarkable instruments in their own right but the 7x is a wonder and , no, I am not paid, don't know the owner (although I am certain I would find his story of the development and outsourcing of the manufacturing fascinating) and receive zero benefit for saying my bit. I probably wouldn't even feel the need to respond to your post except that it seems to diminish the Zens and that is simply wrong.

CLRobles said:

I will probably be thrown off the site here for posting this but I feel its important that people who come to BF get honest information and not ultra biased opinion by associations from optic companies. This I believe compromises the spirit of BF....
Well it has come full circle with my question about the ZR fever on all the web sites. Now before I go further I find no fault with ZR themselves but with certain people that post about their product.
As you know I have questioned the all out ferver and, what looks to me, marketing campaign here on BF and other forums. It seems that at some point forum members, at least one member here, have started a cozy relationship with ZR and have not been forthright about this relationship. A regular poster (we'll call him SC) here and one who's opinion is valued by many has just stated openly on forums "I got the chance to meet the Zen Ray owner at the Northwest Sportsman's Show in Portland OR. Since then, we communicate via e-mail several times a month. When he began to contemplate the ED 2, I was asked to be part of a beta test group. I accepted the offer".... This individual has said to his defense that he was never paid and is not an employee of ZR..... Is this true? Maybe? Only he really knows I guess? But was there any gain? Did he receive discounted prices or trade allowances that were not made to the general public? I don't know but I'm not ignorant enough to not know that this is how things work! Typically if it smells bad, its bad!
Now this individual is pushing ZR like crazy and helping to convince people all over the world to buy ZR.....
I find this very disturbing!
There have been plenty of reps from companys that have come here and give advice but they have always been forthright with who they are and always recuse themselves from discussion of their products unless simple tech data or warranty service questions are posed.
I ask, if someone knows a owner of a optics company..... Emailes him/her several times a month..... Participated in a new product test group..... Would they be biased towards this new product? And if that someone came here and told all of you how great it was and how it was sooooooo comparable to optics even four times their cost would this be ethical? And if this someone tries to shout down anyone who starts to figure out what is going on would that be OK with the whole of the forum membership?
Maybe it is OK with most and they just see it for what it is and leave it alone? But I just can't do that, it's not truthful!
Beyond all the negative political reasons not to buy a Chinese bin, and there are a lot of political reasons not to buy a Chinese binocular, there are two serious issues at hand.
1) For someone to use this forum to dishonestly drive their product is both deceitful to and unethical to those who come to BF looking for honest evaluations and help in the Birding hobby.
2) The future of our hobby with high-end optics, in my opinion, depends upon enthusiast like ourselves to survive. And when cheap sales tactics sway opinion that there is no real need for high-end optics because less expensive optics do 99% of the same for 25% of the price we are in danger of losing long time players in the industry that really do drive technology. And in the end WE lose because the only option is cheap imitations made in China.

So lets sum this up.....
The question is? Is it OK for any optics company to solicit knowledgable people on the internet, start close relationships with them, and then the people go back to the forums and pitch their product with great ferver?

If I have offended anyone with this post I apologize in advance

Charles

Click to expand...

I dont know the answer to your question because I am not a lawyer. BUT... I would say: be careful with your judgement about the people.

Why didnt anyone, or even you, started a new thread about the same issue but talking about the Zeiss? Or Swaro?
These companies are much older than Zen-Ray, so the users.

Be careful man...

For example: I hate windows computers. I only buy and use Macintosh computers and NOWADAYS I ALWAYS recommend them on the computer forum over the internet. But that doesnt mean I work for Apple Computers LLC.

Who do you trust?

Back on a piano forum where firstly newbies of two weeks who had just searched for and bought an instrument were giving sage advice, and secondly dealers who, despite announcing their wares were always subtley criticising other brands while promoting their own (the german sounding 'Steigerman Premium' value for money Chinese piano comes to mind) this trust question was asked.
Caused much discussion, got nowhere, probably embarassed the good guys, did nothing to discourage the snakeoil salesmen who carry on regardless.
Such is the internet, as in life.

I must say I also find that amount of praise of the ZR a little irritating. Certainly there are plenty of positive comments on the ZR from a larger number of people, which indicates that this is indeed a good binocular. But I am not sure what I should think about a few people that since months keep repeating over and over how great a bin that is, suggesting it to every new user asking advise on binoculars etc. Either they are very unhealthily obsessed by the zen-magic or they are indeed trying to push sales.

There is an old Brewery in my town that makes a good profit specializing in what is known as "Boutique" Beers. If you have the money and a formula, for a negotiated fee, they will expertly brew for you your beer and even label it for you. They have the Brewmaster, equipment and expertise to do this. After the Beer has been brewed and bottled it is up to you to warehouse it and market it. Some of them are pretty darn good too!

I think, lately, what we have seen in the Binocular Industry, is an influx of what can be described as "Boutique" binoculars. Some are quite good, some are bad and some are indifferent. All, however, ultimately rely on the of the reliability and reputation of the entitys that contracted for their manufacture, which is quite different from those manufactured by the "Budweisers" et al of the industry. As the lawyer's say, caveat emptor!

Bob

A few things.

First of all. It looks really stupid when you comment a bin you have never tried. This goes out to the topic starter and everyone else. If you have not tried it, you can not give any type of "review" based solely on what you want to believe.

Second. The "push" for the Zen-Ray happens in the review thread and when someone wants advice for their upcoming purchase of a new bin. In the review thread it is quite natural that opinions are being ventilated. I gave a review of the bin, I listed pros and cons, so did many more. Moving on to when someone asking for advice for their new bin. I fail to see why me or someone else should not tell em about the ZR. It is alpha optics for low price (imo). When I first joined BF I asked about what bin I should buy. Many many told me that the Vortex Viper was the best bang for the buck and that I should buy it. And I did, and I really liked it. Was it not as wrong as advising someone about the ZR? The Vortex is also a Chinese bin, but the hate-monger that started this thread usually forgets about that. It seems that only one company can be associated with China, not Nikon or Vortex. What company´s do you consider "legal" to mention when someone wants advice, and what company´s is not? And please motivate why. Btw, you really should try it. Then you will also question why anyone should spend $2000 when the same quality. can be had for 1/4 of the cost.

My final question is, who do you work for? Surely you must have an agenda, since you act like you do.

I guess that someone here bought a 2000 dollars alpha and now have that feeling: I shouldnt have spent so much... I should have bought a ZR!

Seriously: you are in a forum. A BINOCULAR forum. What do you think people would do here??? Talk about cars?? Defend the Toyotas vehicles??

I have to say too, that I find VERY irritating when people talk about the alphas to other people. Some think if you dont have an alpha, you have NOTHING!
They almost judge the people who doesnt have 2000 dollars in their pocket to spend with a binoculars. THATS not fair, and not the fact that few people recommend their ZR to other people.

Oh what the hell, this thread just doesnt make sense.

bruleke said:

Oh what the hell, this thread just doesnt make sense.

Click to expand...

Most of what we whiffle on about here doesn´t make much sense. They´re only tubes with glass in for seeing faraway things. Maybe we all need to get a life - hell, I´d do it myself if binocular-waffling weren´t such darned fun....

Sancho said:

Most of what we whiffle on about here doesn´t make much sense. They´re only tubes with glass in for seeing faraway things. Maybe we all need to get a life - hell, I´d do it myself if binocular-waffling weren´t such darned fun....

Click to expand...

I agree! 8-P

I would suggest to the owner of this thread to read this one: http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=150586

CLRobles said:

I will probably be thrown off the site here for posting this but I feel its important that people who come to BF get honest information and not ultra biased opinion by associations from optic companies. This I believe compromises the spirit of BF....
Well it has come full circle with my question about the ZR fever on all the web sites. Now before I go further I find no fault with ZR themselves but with certain people that post about their product.
As you know I have questioned the all out ferver and, what looks to me, marketing campaign here on BF and other forums. It seems that at some point forum members, at least one member here, have started a cozy relationship with ZR and have not been forthright about this relationship. A regular poster (we'll call him SC) here and one who's opinion is valued by many has just stated openly on forums "I got the chance to meet the Zen Ray owner at the Northwest Sportsman's Show in Portland OR. Since then, we communicate via e-mail several times a month. When he began to contemplate the ED 2, I was asked to be part of a beta test group. I accepted the offer".... This individual has said to his defense that he was never paid and is not an employee of ZR..... Is this true? Maybe? Only he really knows I guess? But was there any gain? Did he receive discounted prices or trade allowances that were not made to the general public? I don't know but I'm not ignorant enough to not know that this is how things work! Typically if it smells bad, its bad!
Now this individual is pushing ZR like crazy and helping to convince people all over the world to buy ZR.....
I find this very disturbing!
There have been plenty of reps from companys that have come here and give advice but they have always been forthright with who they are and always recuse themselves from discussion of their products unless simple tech data or warranty service questions are posed.
I ask, if someone knows a owner of a optics company..... Emailes him/her several times a month..... Participated in a new product test group..... Would they be biased towards this new product? And if that someone came here and told all of you how great it was and how it was sooooooo comparable to optics even four times their cost would this be ethical? And if this someone tries to shout down anyone who starts to figure out what is going on would that be OK with the whole of the forum membership?
Maybe it is OK with most and they just see it for what it is and leave it alone? But I just can't do that, it's not truthful!
Beyond all the negative political reasons not to buy a Chinese bin, and there are a lot of political reasons not to buy a Chinese binocular, there are two serious issues at hand.
1) For someone to use this forum to dishonestly drive their product is both deceitful to and unethical to those who come to BF looking for honest evaluations and help in the Birding hobby.
2) The future of our hobby with high-end optics, in my opinion, depends upon enthusiast like ourselves to survive. And when cheap sales tactics sway opinion that there is no real need for high-end optics because less expensive optics do 99% of the same for 25% of the price we are in danger of losing long time players in the industry that really do drive technology. And in the end WE lose because the only option is cheap imitations made in China.

So lets sum this up.....
The question is? Is it OK for any optics company to solicit knowledgable people on the internet, start close relationships with them, and then the people go back to the forums and pitch their product with great ferver?

If I have offended anyone with this post I apologize in advance

Charles

Click to expand...

Since I have been reading the opinions of many on this forum I have not always liked what I have read but I have always just took it for what it is someones opinion. If anyone has proof that one is violating the forums rules they should contact the people who have the authority to deal with it & not just say it may be or I think they are...... So to those who agree to disagree put up or just be silent & no Iam not offended and that is just my opinion .... Gwen

gcole said:

If anyone has proof that one is violating the forums rules they should contact the people who have the authority to deal with it & not just say it may be or I think they are.... Gwen

Click to expand...

Excellent post, Gwen.:t:

Very interesting comments by the original poster. Also some very interesting responses, some of which veer off the main point.

FWIW, I agree with the original poster that reviews, or even comments regarding a product that do not constitute a review, must remain as unbiased as conceivably possibly. There are a number of ways that bias can and often does interfere with presentation of facts. It is incumbent upon the reviewer to excercise restraint to remain unbiased. It is not always the case.

edz

edz said:

Very interesting comments by the original poster. Also some very interesting responses, some of which veer off the main point.

FWIW, I agree with the original poster that reviews, or even comments regarding a product that do not constitute a review, must remain as unbiased as conceivably possibly. There are a number of ways that bias can and often does interfere with presentation of facts. It is incumbent upon the reviewer to excercise restraint to remain unbiased. It is not always the case.

edz

Click to expand...

That´s true also. But bear in mind that, when buying a product unseen on someone else´s advice, we´re all intelligent adults who should know if we´re being "had" before we decide on a purchase, and we´re all smart enough to buy only from online retailers who offer a good returns policy. All of us here have sometimes given glowing "reviews" (the "IMHO" kind) or advice on our fave optics, but these come with the caveat...."It´s my advice, but it´s your money".

Please PM me with any concerns, We try to keep the forum as neutral as possible we don't favour any manufacterer, and I can assure you if we are told about any blatent advertising we would certainly do something about it. I suspect that it is mainly big fans of a product to *up* there opinion and not dealers or manufacterers? it is NOT ok for optics bosses to solicit our members through the forum's systems and any that do will be warned about it.

So please PM me so we can investigate any grievances, but make sure you have facts not hunches please.

thanks

Steve

Le grand fromage BF

Robles, I do not plan to waste much more of my time with you. Before going further, it should be pointed out to those who will read this that CLRobles was kicked off of the Optics Talk binocular forum yesterday on this exact same topic. He got nasty and personal and the moderator booted him post haste. The moderation there is much more lenient there than here.

You seem for some reason to have a vendetta against both the Zen Ray binoculars and me personally. I think your dislike for me stems from the fact that I had, in your eyes, the effrontery to challenge you here, not once, but twice. The challenge was that you had not tried the binocular, yet were being vociferously negative in your attack on these binoculars.

CLR, if I were you, I would not take too much comfort from EdZ’s post on objectivity. I agree with what he says, but it does not apply at all to you. You have an objective, two of them in fact. One is to discredit the Zen Ray line of binoculars and the second objective is to discredit me. Since you have not and will not lower yourself to a sufficient objective analysis of the ZR binoculars, you can lay no claim to objectivity in your abundantly negative analysis.

I find it a curious double standard that exists in optics evaluation. Praise any alpha to the skies and the likelihood of the poster being accused of being a Swarovski, or other alpha salesman is about zero. Let somebody ask about a less expensive binocular alternative and it usually does not take any more than a post or two for someone to tell the poster to save up. Yet nobody seems to see this as “blatant promotion”. When finally there really comes along a decent alternative that really does come closest yet to filling the gap, then the sky is falling.

Now I posted from the start in the reviews I posted on the ZEN ED and ZRS binoculars that they were provided by ZR and after the review I liked them well enough that I bought one of each. I bought them with my own money off the ZR website, just like everyone else. My opinions posted subsequently are based on as objective an analysis I as I could do. I had no preconceptions about what I would find, and I tried as much as possible to stay in neutral until I formed my opinion. As to the beta study group, that did not happen until long after I had both met the ZR owner and after I had posted the reviews. In point of fact there was a thread I posted called “What do we want” which it has come to light that ZR paid a lot of attention to in the development of the ED 2. ZR also looks at every ZR post here to try and keep some evaluation of what is happening. So, in that sense the whole BF is to some degree a study group. Personally I think it is encouraging that a manufacturer would come here and actually factor user opinions into product development. The only thing involved in the study group was to answer product related questions and we got to actually handle the two 7x36 prototypes and the one 8x43 prototype. We evaluated those and sent that response to Zen Ray. Quite frankly the first 7x36 prototype was abominable and I wouldn’t have taken it free if offered. So I am not a ZR employee. I am posting my opinion, based on objective review, and only my opinion based on my review and time with these binoculars.

I think there is a big difference between establishing a relationship with a company and giving positive reviews because of a good product on one hand and defining the product as good because of the relationship with the company on the other hand. I have received no advantage from my association with ZR. I can not be any clearer there.

What really set CLR off and led to his expulsion from OT was a question posed to him by a well known outdoor author who asked him who was paying CLR to troll the net and try to kill the ZR. CLR has given us many hints of his own associations. He boasts of working at the Outdoorsman’s Warehouse in Arizona and tells us that he has spent countless hours afield with the best optics with all of the field representatives from all the alpha companies. That is apparently fine for him, but nobody else. There are several people who have in various PM posts going around in other forums stated that CLR is either a Swarovski employee, or has been a Swarovski employee. Now, this is no accusation or attack from me, but I do not know. Well, I came clean about ZR, OK CLR, who do you work for here? You are too over the top here not to have some sort of agenda. You act like every ZR sale is costing you personally in some way.

Maybe I am too naive, but it seems to me that if optics was your only interest, you would have evaluated a pair of ZR.

Steve,

I appreciate your contributions to this forum. Based on a little research I did it does appear as if you are affiliated with several companies....both before and after Zen Ray....

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=142051 (Steiner)
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=146500 (6x-7x comparison)
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=145663 (Eagle Optics Ravern)
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=144799 (Altas Intrepid)
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=130305 (Swarovski World Traveler, Information post)
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=133685 (Viper 8x32)
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=121831 (Promaster)
http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=111123 (Vortex Fury 6.5x32)

Steve said:

Le grand fromage BF

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LOL! (Wish I could think of a good "´Allo, ´Allo" joke here.....)

Hi Frank, I want to say I really really appreciate your contributions to this forum, but now I am starting to worry after reading some of your links in your post 21. On a lot of them you are the first to reply to Steve C and also talk of getting samples of a mystery binocular that turned into being a Promaster.

All joking aside I think there are a few people here that have bought a lot of binoculars/spotting scopes and have posted their thoughts about these binoculars and have sold them at a loss. I am forever in their debt.:t:

For what it is worth I enjoyed the Magnification vs Exit Pupil thread where CL posted quite a few replys and I noticed from what I read when he first started posting on here he seemed quite mellow. I would hate for him to depart this forum as well as others on here.B
Regards,Steve

Well stated, MoreOrLess. This love affair with ZR is more sickeningly sweet than a Kidz Bop song but I never suspected any of it was out of bounds. Fanboy syndrome is rampant in almost any forum. It's almost as insidious as psychophant syndrome.

Guitar forums... the guitar du jour or amp du jour is always the greatest thing anyone ever heard or played.

Stringed instruments - oh these new fandangled violins from xxx country are the sweetest ever - way better than Stradi-who-vius.

And cameras? Diss a camera and it's jihad. Canon-akbar!

OK my trench is now deep enough.