Are these people Birders ? (1 Viewer)

[IanF]

You missed the point big time Draco. The article refers to farmers not bird watchers and whilst farmers are to lose the right to shoot Sparrows and Starlings it's not exactly everyday practice. Very little shooting goes on at all over here, even for game birds - let alone wasting shot on Sparrows and Starlings - if anything mechanical bird scarers and scarecrows are used for these species. The change in this legislation will have likely have little impact on anyone - even the species concerned.

About the only remotely comparable similarity occurring over here is the 'control' of the introduced North American Ruddy Duck which is carefully governed and licenced. There is no advocation of anyone taking the destruction of any birds into their own hands.

Methinks you are grasping at straws here by quoting out of context!

 

[Steve]

Since you live in the UK I’m sure that you dress up, get on horses with your friends, chase down helpless foxes and watch dogs tear them to pieces when they get too tired to run. You should be ashamed of yourself and your friends

Ridiculous accusation draco,its against the law.

 

[Jos Stratford]

You missed the point big time Draco. The article refers to farmers not bird watchers and whilst farmers are to lose the right to shoot Sparrows and Starlings it's not exactly everyday practice. .

To accuse of hypocrisy is a reflection of your attitude on this issue ...as Ian points out, you are comparing farmers in one instance and so-called 'birders' on a bird forum who express a delight in torturing birds. Don't see a comparison!

 

[alcedo.atthis]

"I am trying to preserve and increase the number of Purple Martins in the State of Michigan through a unique project, which has never been done with any bird species to my knowledge."



Mark

How much available video of the actual nests during incubation is available, and what does it show in regards to intrusion by other species compared with infanticide by male Martins?



"I use two methods for lethal control of S&S. Trapping/drowning and shooting. I could use trapping/gassing, trapping/chest compression or trapping/break neck. These are all accepted as “humane” and the bird is dispatched very quickly"
Are they accepted as "humane". On reading certain ducuments, some of the above methods are not recommended. Are you up to date with available information??


Top ten reasons why one cannot get Purple martins.

http://www.purplemartin.org/main/topten.html



Helpful Hints for Martin Landlords
from the PMCA

http://www.purplemartin.org/main/helpful.html



The PMCA’s Best Martin Management Tips

http://www.purplemartin.org/main/besttips.html

"Protect your housing from predators. Don’t assume that because you never see any predators there are none around. Raccoons, snakes, and owls raid bird houses at night. Few experiences are more painful than losing all your martins because you didn't equip your poles and housing with guards. Whether your housing consists of 6" x 6" or 7" x 12" compartments, external guards to protect against owls, hawks, and crows are insurance every house needs. Since all martin poles, wood or metal, are easily climbed by rat snakes, squirrels, and raccoons, all birdhouse poles require climbing animal barriers. You can install guards before or after your martins have arrived. In areas with fire ants, Teflon spray or tape, or a ring of grease on the pole, will stop the ants. Grease won't stop snakes or raccoons, so install a pole guard, too."

"Practice active management by controlling House Sparrows and European Starlings. Starlings and House Sparrows will take over compartments, destroy eggs, kill nestlings, and prevent martins from nesting at unestablished sites."

Please feel free to correct me, but if the "site" is "unestablished", how can the above take place. Are they imaginary eggs and nestlings??

"If native birds (Tree Swallows, wrens, bluebirds, or flycatchers) try to nest in your martin housing, close it and put up single-unit boxes for these desirable species elsewhere on your property. Reopen the martin housing only after the new box has been accepted."

Someone mentioned "hypocrisy" on the part of the UK members. Please explain, what is the above??

Having read many articles regarding Purple Martins, I can only come to the conclusion that there is a great lacking of knowledge within the part of the Purple Martin community, based on what I am reading on public forum, compared to the extensive information available.

There is a vast amount of hearsay, compared to actual facts.

There is very little ornithological based research behind most of the comments derived from the public forums. I also note that many sites offering ?information are sites financed by suppliers of Purple Martin aids, bird houses etc.



In the early 1990's and 2001, nest-cam video was utilised at P/M's nests. Interestingly, there is no mention of intrusion by either of the so called "intrusive" "deadliest enemies" in the record logs. I wonder why??

I also found this interesting :-

"Since martins feed solely on flying insects, they are extremely vulnerable to weather conditions that affect insect availability. Prolonged bad weather, such as rain, snow, cool temperatures, and/or heavy winds, all reduce or eliminate insect flight. If poor weather persists for more than 2 or 3 days, martins begin to die of starvation. Heat waves and droughts can also be a problem. When air temperatures go above 100º F. for many days, nestlings can perish from overheating. Prolonged drought can also adversely affect insect numbers. Some weather conditions may contribute to a population explosion of external parasites normally found in martin nests, including fleas, nest mites, and blowfly larvae. Never use pesticides in nests or boxes. The safest way to reduce the number of nest parasites is to conduct a "nest replacement." First, remove the nestlings to a temporary container. Throw out the old parasite-infested nest. Then replace the old nest material with clean, dry wood shavings, pine straw (dried pine needles), or dry straw. Shape a shallow bowl in the new material and place the nestlings back in the nest."

And this is not a detrimental act??



We have, well you, actually, have, a myriad of reasons why P/M fail at or in the nest sites. From human interference, human negligence, weather, too cold, or too hot, (global warming!!) (3 days at 100°F and nestlings start to die off, too cold or too much rain, and no insects to feed on, nestlings die), nest infestations, predation and nest encroachment by a number of endemic species, birds, mammals, snakes, fire ants etc, infanticide by the Martin males, and nest building by a species which over winters in the area when nest boxes should be closed up until the spring return of the Martins, but in all probability, left open due to laziness on the part of most nest box owners.

There would seem a problem with the colour of the nest boxes.

Are all P/M's nest boxes White. (Recommended)

The placement of the nest boxes is critical. How many owners actually have the minimum recommended space to install a successful P/Martin nest box. But still install beside homes, trees, garages etc, where human disturbance creates more negatives for the success of the birds reproduction.

Noting the above, lets blame the House Sparrow and the E/Starling for all of the above. Why not. It's not endemic, is it??



Regards





Malky, noting that the P/M's forum mods have spat the dummy, and have refused to answer the many legitimate questions put to them.
One can only wonder why, have they something to hide??

 

[Draco]

Steve,

I hear that it isn't enforced very well:

Hunts take place across England & Wales
Thousands of hunt supporters have been out on the first day of hunting in England and Wales after the ban on hunting with dogs came into force.
The Countryside Alliance called on hunt supporters to meet as normal, but vowed to stay within the law. Although hunting with dogs is now a criminal offence, exercising hounds, chasing a scent trail and flushing out foxes to be shot are still legal.
The controversial law, which has pitched animal rights campaigners against hunters who trace their pursuit back centuries, came into force on Friday after the Labour government forced the legislation through parliament late last year.
But with much scope for confusion in the legal text, a bitterly fought argument about the rights and wrongs of using dogs to chase and kill foxes, deer, hares and mink is likely to drag on.
"Thousands of people are sending a message and that's that this ban cannot work," Labour MP Kate Hoey told a crowd of several hundred riders and supporters from the Beaufort Hunt in the west of England on Saturday.
"This law is unenforceable, this law is unjust and I have every confidence in my country and the people of my country that an unjust law cannot last," she said to applause and cheers.

Source:
http://www.supportfoxhunting.co.uk/

See, things get put out of perspective sometimes and we lump people into groups. We assume, sometimes, that if someone in a group does something they all do. I didn't think that you hunted fox. But, perhaps this shows you that not all Purple Martin landlords are the same. You have the right to your opinion, but you don't have the right to tell me that I should be "ashamed" for participating in a perfectly legal practice that we HAVE to do to protect our birds. By doing so you are forcing your opinions on me. You don't live here and you don't know what we deal with. I have provided link upon link, from our federal government, to local governments, to universities and to U.S. birding organizations that culling S&S is necessary. I know that some Brits (one here is a very good friend of mine) think that half of our laws and ways of life are wrong. It is fine for you to THINK that, but do not impose your way of thinking upon my life, or I have every right to say that you are, in fact, a Fox hunter and so are your friends because you are a Brit and Brits are circumventing fox hunting laws.

Ian,

I just happened to find that article and it's sort of the same deal that I just ran by Steve. When I got to this thread it was almost three pages long and I was lumped in with every Purple Martin landlord in the U.S. I was made to feel like I was a criminal when I never committed a crime. I have been trying to show everyone that I have worked toward the very things that you were all against (with the exception of the legal culling of S&S). Nobody said "Gee Mark, very cool project you have going" or "It sure must be cool to work so closely with Peregrines", yet every mention of the word Cowbird was pulled from my Website. So, I find an article about killing S&S in the UK. Why not lump everyone in the UK into that group? If some of them shoot S&S they all must. Of course it's ridiculous! It is ridiculous both ways! The truth and logic were not working. I just tossed in some crap to see what would happen.

Mark

 

[Draco]

Alcedo,

I see that you have been doing some homework. Good!

How much available video of the actual nests during incubation is available, and what does it show in regards to intrusion by other species compared with infanticide by male Martins?

We have little video. My father’s colony fledged 320 birds last year. That is a lot of compartments to watch! Frustrated male Martins that do not find a female sometimes do kill young Martins. This is completely unavoidable and a sad fact. One of MANY problems that Martin landlords deal with.

"I use two methods for lethal control of S&S. Trapping/drowning and shooting. I could use trapping/gassing, trapping/chest compression or trapping/break neck. These are all accepted as “humane” and the bird is dispatched very quickly"
Are they accepted as "humane". On reading certain ducuments, some of the above methods are not recommended. Are you up to date with available information??

It depends what organization you ask. I consider them to be humane, as do other organizations. Some folks don’t think that killing ANY animal in ANY way is humane. Just ask any of the 800,000 PETA members if you don’t believe me.

"Protect your housing from predators. Don’t assume that because you never see any predators there are none around. Raccoons, snakes, and owls raid bird houses at night. Few experiences are more painful than losing all your martins because you didn't equip your poles and housing with guards. Whether your housing consists of 6" x 6" or 7" x 12" compartments, external guards to protect against owls, hawks, and crows are insurance every house needs. Since all martin poles, wood or metal, are easily climbed by rat snakes, squirrels, and raccoons, all birdhouse poles require climbing animal barriers. You can install guards before or after your martins have arrived. In areas with fire ants, Teflon spray or tape, or a ring of grease on the pole, will stop the ants. Grease won't stop snakes or raccoons, so install a pole guard, too."

"Practice active management by controlling House Sparrows and European Starlings. Starlings and House Sparrows will take over compartments, destroy eggs, kill nestlings, and prevent martins from nesting at unestablished sites."

Please feel free to correct me, but if the "site" is "unestablished", how can the above take place. Are they imaginary eggs and nestlings??

OK, I’ll correct you. It says “and prevent Martins from nesting at unestablished sites.

"If native birds (Tree Swallows, wrens, bluebirds, or flycatchers) try to nest in your martin housing, close it and put up single-unit boxes for these desirable species elsewhere on your property. Reopen the martin housing only after the new box has been accepted."

Someone mentioned "hypocrisy" on the part of the UK members. Please explain, what is the above??

By doing this you are providing housing for the other birds and maintaining your Martin housing for Martins. I see no hypocrisy in this.

Having read many articles regarding Purple Martins, I can only come to the conclusion that there is a great lacking of knowledge within the part of the Purple Martin community, based on what I am reading on public forum, compared to the extensive information available.

There is a vast amount of hearsay, compared to actual facts.

There is very little ornithological based research behind most of the comments derived from the public forums. I also note that many sites offering ?information are sites financed by suppliers of Purple Martin aids, bird houses etc.

I mentioned this earlier, but many Martin Landlords are elderly. Many do not own computers. Many do not read and write well. Most landlords are not birders. This is a big part of the problem. Studies and data are rare.

Yes, people make money selling Martin products.

In the early 1990's and 2001, nest-cam video was utilised at P/M's nests. Interestingly, there is no mention of intrusion by either of the so called "intrusive" "deadliest enemies" in the record logs. I wonder why??

S&S control.

I also found this interesting :-

"Since martins feed solely on flying insects, they are extremely vulnerable to weather conditions that affect insect availability. Prolonged bad weather, such as rain, snow, cool temperatures, and/or heavy winds, all reduce or eliminate insect flight. If poor weather persists for more than 2 or 3 days, martins begin to die of starvation. Heat waves and droughts can also be a problem. When air temperatures go above 100º F. for many days, nestlings can perish from overheating. Prolonged drought can also adversely affect insect numbers. Some weather conditions may contribute to a population explosion of external parasites normally found in martin nests, including fleas, nest mites, and blowfly larvae. Never use pesticides in nests or boxes. The safest way to reduce the number of nest parasites is to conduct a "nest replacement." First, remove the nestlings to a temporary container. Throw out the old parasite-infested nest. Then replace the old nest material with clean, dry wood shavings, pine straw (dried pine needles), or dry straw. Shape a shallow bowl in the new material and place the nestlings back in the nest."

And this is not a detrimental act??

NO!!! It saves thousands of birds every year!!! Perhaps tens of thousands. It is VERY common. One of Michigan’s best landlord replaces all of her nests at least once during the nesting season. These birds are VERY friendly. It isn’t unheard of to be able to place the female in the bucket, along with the young while replacing a wet, or parasite infested nest. If nothing else Martin landlords love their Martins!

We have, well you, actually, have, a myriad of reasons why P/M fail at or in the nest sites. From human interference, human negligence, weather, too cold, or too hot, (global warming!!) (3 days at 100°F and nestlings start to die off, too cold or too much rain, and no insects to feed on, nestlings die), nest infestations, predation and nest encroachment by a number of endemic species, birds, mammals, snakes, fire ants etc, infanticide by the Martin males, and nest building by a species which over winters in the area when nest boxes should be closed up until the spring return of the Martins, but in all probability, left open due to laziness on the part of most nest box owners.

There would seem a problem with the colour of the nest boxes.

Are all P/M's nest boxes White. (Recommended)

Most are primarily white.

The placement of the nest boxes is critical. How many owners actually have the minimum recommended space to install a successful P/Martin nest box. But still install beside homes, trees, garages etc, where human disturbance creates more negatives for the success of the birds reproduction.

Noting the above, lets blame the House Sparrow and the E/Starling for all of the above. Why not. It's not endemic, is it??

I never stated that every problem was due to S&S.

Regards

And to you.

Malky, noting that the P/M's forum mods have spat the dummy, and have refused to answer the many legitimate questions put to them.
One can only wonder why, have they something to hide??

They are very busy, as I have been.

Mark

 

[Terry O'Nolley]

Maybe we should post over there that we saw a Purple Martin last year (some did) and shot it after we saw it disturbing a house sparrow nest. I wonder how they would react?
Ben

That is actually a marvelous idea! Imagine the responses you would get

It would also show them what it is like to be on the receiving end.

Individuals sitting in their back yards shooting house sparrows with BB guns does not make a difference. They just use that as an excuse to revel in killing things.

 

[Draco]

Hey Terry,

They can shoot whatever they want over there. I’m not planning a visit, so I really don’t care. I don’t think that anyone would mind, especially since it is a single bird destined to live its life without other colony nesting Purple Martins. It will probably die of loneliness. I’d say put it out of its misery now. It never belonged there in the first place.

You too are a couch judge of character, I see. What are your credentials? Let’s see, you live in Maryland. While you sit on your porch without a BB gun I’m sure that you learn more about Purple Martins, House Sparrows and Starlings than the Maryland Department of Natural Resources! Here is what they have to say about House Sparrows and Purple Martins:

House Sparrows will attempt to take over new martin houses. House Sparrows will also attack an adult bird as it sits on its nest. Peck holes in their eggs, and toss any hatchlings out the door. If you are interested in becoming a martin landlord, please do not erect any martin structures unless you are committed to protecting them from House Sparrows!

Source:
http://www.dnr.state.md.us/wildlife/habichat9.asp

Perhaps you should offer to volunteer with your DNR and teach them about the errors of their ways. You seem like the go getter that they need to set them straight! One bright fellow you are pal! :h?:

Mark

 

[Andrew Rowlands]

Hey Terry,
...

You too are a couch judge of character, I see. What are your credentials? Let’s see, you live in Maryland. While you sit on your porch without a BB gun I’m sure that you learn more about Purple Martins, House Sparrows and Starlings than the Maryland Department of Natural Resources!

...

Mark

Hey Mark - just chill!




Your manner is gaining you no friends on either side of the Atlantic, and your knowledge is, sadly, lacking on both. I suggest you read the Birdforum Guidelines before you Post again!




Andy.

 

[Draco]

Andy,

OK - I just won't post anymore and you all can quit attacking us. Leave us alone and we will leave you alone. I didn't start this thread! I am only trying to make people understand that something that is perfectly legal and helps our native birds is a good thing.

I said that we could do it nice in the open or we could do it privately and not be so nice. It is stated in my first post in this thread. If someone wants to stereotype me I consider that "not so nice" (BB gun). You may feel differently.

I do not consider my response to a direct, unprovoked attack on me a violation of the rules of this board. I feel that my response was appropriate. You are entitled to your opinion. Remember that you were not attacked first, sir.

Mark

 

[Jos Stratford]

They can shoot whatever they want over there. I’m not planning a visit, so I really don’t care. I don’t think that anyone would mind, especially since it is a single bird destined to live its life without other colony nesting Purple Martins. It will probably die of loneliness. I’d say put it out of its misery now.

From what little I know of you, this post seems to sum up the image you are portraying of yourself. For someone who confesses to care about birds, you appear to demonstate an amazing lack of care about either birds or the views of others.

 

[Jos Stratford]

Andy,

I just won't post anymore and you all can quit attacking us. Leave us alone and we will leave you alone.

And this further demonstrates a lack of understanding on your part - this thread directly questioned the methods of 'cull', i.e. the pleasure some PM forum members were taking in pulling legs off birds, electricuting, etc.

Just because you, an individual with opinions, have decided to no longer post, is this a good reason for us to stop 'attacking' (as you say) the actions described?

You then went on to highlight the perfectly 'legal status' and how good a thing it was ...I assume you have drifted from the original line of this thread, for I can't imagine torturing birds, whether native or not, is legal in the US.

 

[Ben O]

As Draco-Mark has said, many of these Purple Martin fanatics are of very low intelligence, so I can only wonder about their ability to identify the birds that they are shooting. How many native birds are being killed by accident? Only yesterday a Purple Martin fanatic was saying how she killed a Finch by accident as it had entered her 'glue-trap'.
I think the Audubon Society really needs to take a grip on the situation and attempt some serious educative programmes aimed at encouraging the PM brigade to open their eyes wider and see the real scheme of nature. It will be a great challenge but also a great opportunity to create genuine wildlife lovers out of these people.

If the PM fanatics put as much effort into wildlife conservation as they do in their pursuit to protect their beloved Purple birds, everyone would be better off. At the moment, as a group, there is no way you can consider the PM brigade as a benefit to wildlife.

Ben

 

[Draco]

Jos,

You cannot believe anything that is posted under my name. As you can clearly see my last post was edited by a moderator on this board. What is the point in my posting any longer when my posts will just be altered to make me look bad?

Mark

 

[Andrew Rowlands]

Jos,

You cannot believe anything that is posted under my name. As you can clearly see my last post was edited by a moderator on this board. What is the point in my posting any longer when my posts will just be altered to make me look bad?

Mark

I don't think the content was altered other than removing the profanity, Mark.

Andy.

 

[Steve]

Jos,

You cannot believe anything that is posted under my name. As you can clearly see my last post was edited by a moderator on this board. What is the point in my posting any longer when my posts will just be altered to make me look bad?

Do not try to twist the facts anymore than you already have Mark, the moderators have not edited any text except one profanity and you know it !

 

[Draco]

What three consonants create a profanity? I used an acronym, not profanity. Katy has altered my post from its original content because she has no defense for her opinions on this issue.

Jos,

I will no longer post the truth and facts because they are ignored here. Not one of my facts has been accepted here. You still accuse me of supporting torture of birds. This clearly shows that nothing but crap is given any attention on this thread so I posted crap in reply to yet another attack against me. You also misrepresent my words when you say that I support torture. I do not and have posted this many times. I support what is legal here. Torture is not. Read the threads again.

All,

I do not consider an acronym profanity. The removal of and acronym altered my message. By changing the content the moderator has rewritten my message. This is the censorship that someone complained about on other forums. Nothing more, nothing less.

Mark

 

[Ben O]

The removal of and acronym altered my message. By changing the content the moderator has rewritten my message. This is the censorship that someone complained about on other forums. Nothing more, nothing less.

Mark

Are you barking mad or what?

 

[alcedo.atthis]

Mark,
Question-How much available video of the actual nests during incubation is available, and what does it show in regards to intrusion by other species compared with infanticide by male Martins?

"Answer-We have little video. My father’s colony fledged 320 birds last year. That is a lot of compartments to watch! Frustrated male Martins that do not find a female sometimes do kill young Martins. This is completely unavoidable and a sad fact. One of MANY problems that Martin landlords deal with."

Considering the cost of nest-cams, their readily availability, and the claims about the care and welfare concerns regarding the Purple Martins by the P/M enthusiasts, I find the lack of nest-cams very surprising.

Statement-"I use two methods for lethal control of S&S. Trapping/drowning and shooting. I could use trapping/gassing, trapping/chest compression or trapping/break neck. These are all accepted as “humane” and the bird is dispatched very quickly"

Question-Are they accepted as "humane". On reading certain documents, some of the above methods are not recommended. Are you up to date with available information??

Answer-It depends what organization you ask. I consider them to be humane, as do other organizations. Some folks don’t think that killing ANY animal in ANY way is humane. Just ask any of the 800,000 PETA members if you don’t believe me.

So the methods employed by yourself, are of self choice, and not as recommended by American wildlife organisations.

Quote from P/M site-"Protect your housing from predators. Don’t assume that because you never see any predators there are none around. Raccoons, snakes, and owls raid bird houses at night. Few experiences are more painful than losing all your martins because you didn't equip your poles and housing with guards. Whether your housing consists of 6" x 6" or 7" x 12" compartments, external guards to protect against owls, hawks, and crows are insurance every house needs. Since all martin poles, wood or metal, are easily climbed by rat snakes, squirrels, and raccoons, all birdhouse poles require climbing animal barriers. You can install guards before or after your martins have arrived. In areas with fire ants, Teflon spray or tape, or a ring of grease on the pole, will stop the ants. Grease won't stop snakes or raccoons, so install a pole guard, too."

"Practice active management by controlling House Sparrows and European Starlings. Starlings and House Sparrows will take over compartments, destroy eggs, kill nestlings, and prevent martins from nesting at un-established sites."

Question-Please feel free to correct me, but if the "site" is "un-established", how can the above take place. Are they imaginary eggs and nestlings??

Answer-OK, I’ll correct you. It says “and prevent Martins from nesting at un-established sites.

You are not correcting me. You are evading the question.

If the site is un-established by Purple Martins, then how can there be the "egg destruction" and nestling killings" if said eggs and nestlings do not exist. Nothing in "official" literature mentions the House Sparrows actually "kill" Purple Martins. What is states repeatedly, is that the Sparrow stays within the "sedentary" territory, building it's nest prior to the return of the P/M's. This is due to people, either opening the nest boxes up as soon as they see "scouts" or being lazy, and leaving them open all year. Starlings will attack and perhaps "kill" Purple Martins, if the said Martin(s) invade the Starlings nest space. There are many Purple Martin bird houses which have House Sparrows and Starlings co-existing in different sections alongside Purple Martins etc.

Quote from P/M site-"If native birds (Tree Swallows, wrens, bluebirds, or flycatchers) try to nest in your martin housing, close it and put up single-unit boxes for these desirable species elsewhere on your property. Reopen the martin housing only after the new box has been accepted."

Question-Someone mentioned "hypocrisy" on the part of the UK members. Please explain, what is the above??

Answer-By doing this you are providing housing for the other birds and maintaining your Martin housing for Martins. I see no hypocrisy in this.

By killing other endemic species in favour of the Purple Martins, are you not alienating the Tree Swallow, Wren and Bluebird etc enthusiasts. If that is not hypocritical, then please tell me what is??
Question-Having read many articles regarding Purple Martins, I can only come to the conclusion that there is a great lacking of knowledge within the part of the Purple Martin community, based on what I am reading on public forum, compared to the extensive information available.
There is a vast amount of hearsay, compared to actual facts.

Answer-I mentioned this earlier, but many Martin Landlords are elderly. Many do not own computers. Many do not read and write well. Most landlords are not birders. This is a big part of the problem. Studies and data are rare.

Your answer only confirms my claims about the "lack of knowledge" within the Purple Martin community overall. A sad state of affairs, considering the actions being taken by some due to said lack of knowledge.

Question-In the early 1990's and 2001, nest-cam video was utilised at P/M's nests. Interestingly, there is no mention of intrusion by either of the so called "intrusive" "deadliest enemies" in the record logs. I wonder why??

I take note that you did not respond to this question. Can I take it that you already know this, but cannot seem to be seen agreeing with the claim, as this would run against the grain of argument, re the perceived problem with the Sparrows and Starlings??

Quote from P/M site, snipped-"The safest way to reduce the number of nest parasites is to conduct a "nest replacement." First, remove the nestlings to a temporary container. Throw out the old parasite-infested nest. Then replace the old nest material with clean, dry wood shavings, pine straw (dried pine needles), or dry straw. Shape a shallow bowl in the new material and place the nestlings back in the nest."

Question-And this is not a detrimental act??

Answer-NO!!! It saves thousands of birds every year!!! Perhaps tens of thousands. It is VERY common. One of Michigan’s best landlord replaces all of her nests at least once during the nesting season. These birds are VERY friendly. It isn’t unheard of to be able to place the female in the bucket, along with the young while replacing a wet, or parasite infested nest. If nothing else Martin landlords love their Martins!

Are they then killing them with kindness??
Handling birds at the nest takes care and training.
Does the training actually exist or take place??
Do you have "exploding" (ringers term) broods??
What is the level of desertion and brood loss??
Is this adding to predation scent tracks??
Answer-I never stated that every problem was due to S&S.

It's nice to see that now you are learning also. "Good".

Quote from me- noting that the P/M's forum mods have spat the dummy, and have refused to answer the many legitimate questions put to them.

One can only wonder why, have they something to hide??

Answer-They are very busy,

Yes, so it would seem, but busy doing what? Hiding from the truth of the subject matter perhaps!! Or perhaps they are now studying the subject matter in a little more detail, hopefully!!





Regards



Malky

 

[Draco]

Malky,

Question-How much available video of the actual nests during incubation is available, and what does it show in regards to intrusion by other species compared with infanticide by male Martins?

"Answer-We have little video. My father’s colony fledged 320 birds last year. That is a lot of compartments to watch! Frustrated male Martins that do not find a female sometimes do kill young Martins. This is completely unavoidable and a sad fact. One of MANY problems that Martin landlords deal with."

Considering the cost of nest-cams, their readily availability, and the claims about the care and welfare concerns regarding the Purple Martins by the P/M enthusiasts, I find the lack of nest-cams very surprising.

But, considering that we have a colony nesting bird and an average landlord has dozens of compartments it adds up. "Super colonies" have hundreds of nests. Our days are now at least 14 hours long now. How much do you "expect" of us for data that you would like to see? The cost would still be very great and we would need power sources, cable, etc. Then we would spend all night analyzing the data from all of those nestcams and never sleep. You don't understand what is going on here. You have nothing to compare it to. It would be cheaper for us all to chip in and fly you over for a look. Here is a composite of shot of an average size colony. How are you going to monitor all 48 nests?

Statement-"I use two methods for lethal control of S&S. Trapping/drowning and shooting. I could use trapping/gassing, trapping/chest compression or trapping/break neck. These are all accepted as “humane” and the bird is dispatched very quickly"

Question-Are they accepted as "humane". On reading certain documents, some of the above methods are not recommended. Are you up to date with available information??

Answer-It depends what organization you ask. I consider them to be humane, as do other organizations. Some folks don’t think that killing ANY animal in ANY way is humane. Just ask any of the 800,000 PETA members if you don’t believe me.

So the methods employed by yourself, are of self choice, and not as recommended by American wildlife organizations.

No, as with medicine, vitamins and food we are constantly changing what we are "supposed" to do. The same is true with this. Drowning may have been acceptable last week by one organization, then they change their mind and it’s still acceptable by another. I can easily switch to ether and will do so, since this seems to be the current standard. I’m sure that by next year that will change.

Just an added point to this. In some areas we do not have a big problem with S&S. Control over a period of years reduces their numbers. It really works. I have not seen and English Sparrow yet this year in my yard and have not eliminated a dozen Starling. Continued control can work on a small isolated area to the point where little control is necessary. Seven years ago things were different here.

Quote from P/M site-"Protect your housing from predators. Don’t assume that because you never see any predators there are none around. Raccoons, snakes, and owls raid bird houses at night. Few experiences are more painful than losing all your martins because you didn't equip your poles and housing with guards. Whether your housing consists of 6" x 6" or 7" x 12" compartments, external guards to protect against owls, hawks, and crows are insurance every house needs. Since all martin poles, wood or metal, are easily climbed by rat snakes, squirrels, and raccoons, all birdhouse poles require climbing animal barriers. You can install guards before or after your martins have arrived. In areas with fire ants, Teflon spray or tape, or a ring of grease on the pole, will stop the ants. Grease won't stop snakes or raccoons, so install a pole guard, too."

"Practice active management by controlling House Sparrows and European Starlings. Starlings and House Sparrows will take over compartments, destroy eggs, kill nestlings, and prevent martins from nesting at un-established sites."

Question-Please feel free to correct me, but if the "site" is "un-established", how can the above take place. Are they imaginary eggs and nestlings??

Answer-OK, I’ll correct you. It says “and prevent Martins from nesting at un-established sites.

You are not correcting me. You are evading the question.

Let me put it this way. I have an "unestablished site". No Martins for years. If I allow S&S to occupy available compartments it prevents Martins from occupying those compartments and any available compartment would be defended by S&S. You are misreading this. An unestablished site means that no Martins have colonized at the site. If I allow the available compartments to fill up with S&S I am actually compounding the problem. I will never get a Martin colony and will add to the problem by multiplying S&S.

If the site is un-established by Purple Martins, then how can there be the "egg destruction" and nestling killings" if said eggs and nestlings do not exist. Nothing in "official" literature mentions the House Sparrows actually "kill" Purple Martins. What is states repeatedly, is that the Sparrow stays within the "sedentary" territory, building it's nest prior to the return of the P/M's. This is due to people, either opening the nest boxes up as soon as they see "scouts" or being lazy, and leaving them open all year. Starlings will attack and perhaps "kill" Purple Martins, if the said Martin(s) invade the Starlings nest space. There are many Purple Martin bird houses which have House Sparrows and Starlings co-existing in different sections alongside Purple Martins etc.

Many of the links that I provided show graphic evidence of what S&S do to our birds - kill them. Many of the links that I provided speak of this killing. Please read and look at the information that I took the time to provide. These non-native birds kill our Martins every single day that Martins are in North America. This is well documented in my many links from reputable sources that Katy demanded. She has yet to come up with one single source that denies that this happens and I don’t think that anyone else can find one. I will go through them and re-post them if you request it.

It also seems that there is a double standard for moderators and members here. Katy uses the word Damn in her posts, but edits the acronym WTF as profanity in my post.

Quote from P/M site-"If native birds (Tree Swallows, wrens, bluebirds, or flycatchers) try to nest in your martin housing, close it and put up single-unit boxes for these desirable species elsewhere on your property. Reopen the martin housing only after the new box has been accepted."

Question-Someone mentioned "hypocrisy" on the part of the UK members. Please explain, what is the above??

Answer-By doing this you are providing housing for the other birds and maintaining your Martin housing for Martins. I see no hypocrisy in this.

By killing other endemic species in favour of the Purple Martins, are you not alienating the Tree Swallow, Wren and Bluebird etc enthusiasts. If that is not hypocritical, then please tell me what is??
Question-Having read many articles regarding Purple Martins, I can only come to the conclusion that there is a great lacking of knowledge within the part of the Purple Martin community, based on what I am reading on public forum, compared to the extensive information available.
There is a vast amount of hearsay, compared to actual facts.

We would not kill any of these birds. I have Tree Swallows choosing a nest site in my yard today. My compartments that I do not want them in are closed (as suggested). Open housing is available to them. I have had nesting Carolina Wrens on my land, as well. Just not in my Martin housing. This is simple. You seem very bright. I don't know what you are trying to imply. I also have had the cavity nesting Chickadee nest on my land, but not in my Martin housing. Eastern Screech Owls nest in a box for them on my land, not in my Martin housing.

Answer-I mentioned this earlier, but many Martin Landlords are elderly. Many do not own computers. Many do not read and write well. Most landlords are not birders. This is a big part of the problem. Studies and data are rare.

Your answer only confirms my claims about the "lack of knowledge" within the Purple Martin community overall. A sad state of affairs, considering the actions being taken by some due to said lack of knowledge.

I'm sure that EVERY single person who provides housing for birds in your country knows as much about birds as you do. Perhaps we need to give people a test before they are allowed to put up Martin housing and require a permit to do so. That’s one slippery slope! Soon everyone, world wide, will need to be educated before they put up a bird feeder or bird bath. Both of these need to be cleaned and attended to. Does every single person who does anything for birds in your country do everything that they are supposed to do?

It isn’t like we have tens of thousands of active martin colonies in North America. I struggled to document over 50 in my state alone, trying very hard to find them for almost a year. I believe that our state is larger than your country. There are bad apples in every bunch. We are working to educate people, but it is a difficult task. You are not incorrect in stating that some Martin landlords do wrong things. I have known this from day one. I will work toward fixing it until I die.

Question-In the early 1990's and 2001, nest-cam video was utilised at P/M's nests. Interestingly, there is no mention of intrusion by either of the so called "intrusive" "deadliest enemies" in the record logs. I wonder why??

I take note that you did not respond to this question. Can I take it that you already know this, but cannot seem to be seen agreeing with the claim, as this would run against the grain of argument, re the perceived problem with the Sparrows and Starlings??

I did answer. The answer was S&S control. It was short and easy to miss. They practice S&S control at that site and do not have a problem with these birds at that site because they control S&S. Just like my yard is controlled.

Quote from P/M site, snipped-"The safest way to reduce the number of nest parasites is to conduct a "nest replacement." First, remove the nestlings to a temporary container. Throw out the old parasite-infested nest. Then replace the old nest material with clean, dry wood shavings, pine straw (dried pine needles), or dry straw. Shape a shallow bowl in the new material and place the nestlings back in the nest."

Question-And this is not a detrimental act??

Answer-NO!!! It saves thousands of birds every year!!! Perhaps tens of thousands. It is VERY common. One of Michigan’s best landlord replaces all of her nests at least once during the nesting season. These birds are VERY friendly. It isn’t unheard of to be able to place the female in the bucket, along with the young while replacing a wet, or parasite infested nest. If nothing else Martin landlords love their Martins!

Are they then killing them with kindness??
Handling birds at the nest takes care and training.
Does the training actually exist or take place??
Do you have "exploding" (ringers term) broods??
What is the level of desertion and brood loss??
Is this adding to predation scent tracks??

No, they are saving them with kindness and we use care in handling young birds. Children are often involved in banding and nest changing here. It is a learning experience that we all practice and pass along to others. You must have seen the PMCA mentor program. This is part of that. Yes, we fledge hundreds of birds from many colonies. You could find the data on my Website about how many birds fledge from active colonies in Michigan. If you check nests every three to four days you will not have "jumpers" (desertion and brood loss). Predators know where colonies are and we have many ways to deter predation. Scent is not an issue.

Answer-I never stated that every problem was due to S&S.

It's nice to see that now you are learning also. "Good".

Knew that years ago. I stared my Website to try to determine the reasons for the decline of the Purple Martin in the State of Michigan. Has anyone started a Website to determine the causes of the decline of English Sparrows in Britain?

Quote from me- noting that the P/M's forum mods have spat the dummy, and have refused to answer the many legitimate questions put to them.

One can only wonder why, have they something to hide??

Answer-They are very busy,

Yes, so it would seem, but busy doing what? Hiding from the truth of the subject matter perhaps!! Or perhaps they are now studying the subject matter in a little more detail, hopefully!!

I contacted the PMCA on this. They have a standard practice that they follow when attacked. They replied once and will no longer reply to questions. They ban anyone who joins and posts on their forum that what we do is wrong. They suggested that I ignore this group. I thought that we needed a voice here. Perhaps I'm wrong.

I would like to thank you Malky, as a voice of reason here. You have studied this and you present your questions and opinions in a clear and rational manner. I am pleased to discuss this "situation" with you. This has been a lot of work for me and I am trying to set the record straight. We will never all agree on anything. We come from different parts of the world and our cultures are different.



Regards

Mark

Edited to add content.