BirdLife [Malta] report reveals increased levels of illegal hunting (1 Viewer)

[ColonelBlimp]

And since Bible-quoting is currently in vogue, how about:

Genesis 1:21-23

God blessed them and said, "Be fruitful and increase in number and fill the water in the seas, and let the birds increase on the earth."

Or perhaps the hunter's wrath originates from Leviticus (that old chestnut) 11:12-14

These are the birds you are to detest and not eat because they are detestable: the eagle, the vulture, the black vulture, 14 the red kite, any kind of black kite...

 

[Martin Thomas]

Shush Mr Thomas, I wasn't talking to you nor have I the desire to.

I thought you believe we live is a democratic society with freedom of speechand that this forum should be available for anyone to make their views known? Tell you what, I'll stop responding to you when you stop using your gun to enjoy killiing wild birds.

 

[TwoDipsfromAmsterdam]

Thank you Mr Cantelo. You speak from the heart and your finely written posts always make a pleasant read. Although we do not agree on many issues it is always pleasant to discuss things with somebody that shows respect to the other person. I can only conclude that you are a true gentleman.
The reality, and here i'm only talking about the birder vs the hunter, is that we will have to live with each other. There is room for everything and everyone in life and tolerance is crucial. What we cannot have is people that break the law, whether its in England, Malta or Honolulu. On this one we should stand together. But for goodness sake, let's both do it honestly.

I too would echo heartily John's post. In the end this issue will be resolved only by both sides coming together to try to expand upon those small chinks of light that we might, at this stage, dare call "agreement". The one thing that will ensure lack of progress is abusive and extreme language, even though I understand the depths of feelings (on both sides). As I said in an earlier post on this thread these are cultural issues that run deep in societies and we should not expect those to be dissipated overnight. It will be a long haul but the road has to start somewhere. Now seems an opportune moment to start on that road and to try and draw a veil over the past expressions of (understandable) disgust and distaste (again, on both sides).

I hope everyone who contributes further to this thread will bear this in mind even though I recognise it might be a hard call.

David

 

[Martin Thomas]

<snip>
Finally, I'd like to add that I find it remarkably churlish that some who have (rightly in my view) roundly condemned Gallina for some of his statements and have continued to do so even on a rare occasion when we are in agreement. Let's take Gallina's words at face value as evidence of some shared ground and use it to move forward. Also, let us not dilute the word 'murder' and 'murderous' by using it in this context. Murder is when one human being kills another; to use it in this context makes murderers of us all,

John

John I'd love to believe this individual is sincere in his attitudes towards nature but he has stated he takes pleasure from killing wild birds; a view I don't believe the ornithological community should accept as 'right'. I applaud his rhetoric against illegal hunting but his attitude that he has a licence to kill and therefore will sits uncomfortably alongside his condemnation.

As to whether Gallina's deliberate actions are murder or murderous in the context of we value human life compared to other members of the animal kingdom is purely academic once a bird has been brutally killed.

I agree wholeheartedly that this debate and more importantly, this subject needs to move forward but the actions and attitudes that need to change are sadly not those of the general bird loving community here.

 

[deborah4]

Thanks Gallina for your comment re: my earlier post.

I'm with John, David and Graham here all the way. There is no way, given the entrenched passions on both side of this debate we will ever move forward without dialogue. That does not do anything to belittle the feelings that others have expressed (on both sides) simply that, as often is the case in 'warfare', one must bite the bullet as it were, to find some common ground. It's that common ground that facilitates change and will allow progress.

I sense, after reading so much about this issue, that the Maltese as a 'people' have a very strong sense of cultural identity (not necessarily epitomised by hunting although that's obviously an 'important' aspect of it). Protecting this is clearly very important to them. Thus, enforced imposition of change from outside it's national borders, (through sanctions/expulsion, generalised insults/condemnation of the Country itself) may well appear to be the only rational response from one perspective, but from another, I can understand how this approach could actually fuel anger and resentment from the Maltese and even a backlash response targeted at protected birds by the hunting community - birds make a very easy and vulnerable target upon which to vent that anger and resentment. I include the EU as part of that simply because, as with many EU countries, I think in Malta there are still some very unresolved issues amongst populace about how they feel about being 'governed' by Brussels (and I don't just mean in relation to the environmnent!)

After much thought, I rather think the best people to effect a long term and sustainable change of heart in Malta is the Maltese themselves. This may be an unpopular thing to say since clearly they have shown no or little inclination to do this to date. However, encouraging people like Gallina, who claims to be a legitimate hunter, to stand more firmly and be more vocal within his own hunting community (using his very obvious assertiveness skills!) against illegal hunting, would, I think be a very constructive way forward. No human being however, should be expected to willingly alienate themselves from both sides ... if Gallina shows a willingness to move forward in agreement with some of the issues, he should be commended and welcomed and above all, be made to feel he would be supported if he responds positively - bearing in mind, it could be even harder for a hunter in Malta to 'turn against' the illegal hunters in fear of potential backlash.

I fully support the work of BLI, Proact, the EU commmision, it clearly needs to continue at this stage IMO, but lets be careful not to throw the baby out with the bath water.

 

[deborah4]

btw Martin (I wish I could say this privately but it would be dishonest!), I feel as you do regarding the legal hunting/the killing of wild birds and even conservation arguments that argue for it will never make me like it! However, I just don't think this wider issue can play a part in the Maltese question and only feeds the argument that hunters will use to accuse those who are trying to stop the illegal hunting as having a 'hidden agenda' to stop ALL hunting in Malta period and that can only lead to intransigence with regard to the urgent and immediate problem.

 

[Black Wheatear]

Thank you Mr Cantelo. You speak from the heart and your finely written posts always make a pleasant read. Although we do not agree on many issues it is always pleasant to discuss things with somebody that shows respect to the other person. I can only conclude that you are a true gentleman.
The reality, and here i'm only talking about the birder vs the hunter, is that we will have to live with each other. There is room for everything and everyone in life and tolerance is crucial. What we cannot have is people that break the law, whether its in England, Malta or Honolulu. On this one we should stand together. But for goodness sake, let's both do it honestly.

Okay I agree and thought John's post was both well thought out and very eloquently put. Lets try and get down to a reasoned debate, where passions although aroused still take a back seat to reason. Lets make a start with Deborah4's very sensible post and await your response (I can't think of a better way to start).

:t:

 

[Martin Thomas]

btw Martin (I wish I could say this privately but it would be dishonest!), I feel as you do regarding the legal hunting/the killing of wild birds and even conservation arguments that argue for it will never make me like it! However, I just don't think this wider issue can play a part in the Maltese question and only feeds the argument that hunters will use to accuse those who are trying to stop the illegal hunting as having a 'hidden agenda' to stop ALL hunting in Malta period and that can only lead to intransigence with regard to the urgent and immediate problem.

Thank you Deborah. I agree the issue is far wider than any one individual but being involved in the study of Britain's most persecuted bird of prey I'm painfuly aware of how fragile some of our avian communities are and the actions of just one person with a shotgun has meant we now appear to have lost our only breeding hen harriers in Geltsdale.

This year we had just 13 successful nests in England and only 2 outside of the heavily protected Bowland area. The continued illegal killing of hen harriers has been done to ensure maximum bags of grouse for licenced hunters. I'm sure it's not hard to see why I feel so strongly about so called legal 'sport'.

Some hen harries migrate to Africa and have been shot over Malta and whilst globally they don't have an 'at risk' conservation status it doesn't take a genius to work out the significance of the loss of a single English bird.

Let's hope there is a way forward and a solution found before it's too late.

 

[Collster]

I too would echo heartily John's post. In the end this issue will be resolved only by both sides coming together to try to expand upon those small chinks of light that we might, at this stage, dare call "agreement". The one thing that will ensure lack of progress is abusive and extreme language, even though I understand the depths of feelings (on both sides). As I said in an earlier post on this thread these are cultural issues that run deep in societies and we should not expect those to be dissipated overnight. It will be a long haul but the road has to start somewhere. Now seems an opportune moment to start on that road and to try and draw a veil over the past expressions of (understandable) disgust and distaste (again, on both sides).

I hope everyone who contributes further to this thread will bear this in mind even though I recognise it might be a hard call.

David

David i can see where you are coming from but I personally find it frustrating having to argue the toss with someone who seems in denial with what happens every year in Malta.
Fair play Martin stick to your track , you are on the right one!
Of course we have problems in Britain, believe me there's enough shit gone down this way with regards to wildlife crime , but where we differ is that the people carrying out these crimes here are in the minority. Out there its different... if it wasn't so bad why is there the need for people to have to volunteer every year to record whats going on.
I dont see Proact having to come to Wales or the East coast to check things out, lets get it straight the Maltese Government and the general Maltese population have had years to convince these idiots to stop shooting protected species.
The fact that they wont or can't means its time the EU got real tough, or ejected them

 

[Kestrel21]

b) Poaching in Malta exists, only a fool would deny it. That the island is a blood bath and that hunters shoot at anything that flies, and that annually hundreds if not thousands of protected birds are gunned down is a myth, only a fool would believe it.

d) That Malta is on a main migrating route is another myth. It is roughly 300km away from the fringe of the main passage through the Straits of Messina.

c) That BLM and CABS are fuelling and exaggerating these myths in an attempt to create outrage all over Europe (and they have managed) to reach their final aim of abolishing hunting in Malta (and this is on the cards because already everybody is clamoring for it), is to my mind plausible and a matter of fact.
.

How i wish that the indiscriminate shooting of protected species is myth.... however if you claim so why are you struggling so much to convert the public opinion and maintain your hobby?

If all NGOs and birdwatchers like me are lying about the situation why dont you prove otherwise, unfortunately you cannot contradict footage of shot lesser spotted eagles and black stork. The tens of injured protected birds that after escaping the hunter who shot them were recovered by someone who was willing to hand them over to birdlife or animal rescue is also difficult to contradict. how much more got shot shot and are taken up by the hunter? or die without someone finding them? but that is only a worrying tought cause the exact number cannot be stated but only records are factual and they are too high for this "tiny island".

I think its high time that any law abiding hunters like you claim to be stop hiding the truth and act too......

 

[Collster]

How i wish that the indiscriminate shooting of protected species is myth.... however if you claim so why are you struggling so much to convert the public opinion and maintain your hobby?

If all NGOs and birdwatchers like me are lying about the situation why dont you prove otherwise, unfortunately you cannot contradict footage of shot lesser spotted eagles and black stork. The tens of injured protected birds that after escaping the hunter who shot them were recovered by someone who was willing to hand them over to birdlife or animal rescue is also difficult to contradict. how much more got shot shot and are taken up by the hunter? or die without someone finding them? but that is only a worrying tought cause the exact number cannot be stated but only records are factual and they are too high for this "tiny island".

I think its high time that any law abiding hunters like you claim to be stop hiding the truth and act too......

Hi Kestrel, keep up with the postings, its through people like you that the true picture gets out.
the hunting fraternity can spin as much as they like but we know the reality of whats gone and is still going on in Malta.
Hopefully one day in the near future you and others like you will be able to bird without the threat posed by these idiots

 

[Kestrel21]

thanks collster,

dont worry we know that perseverance is the keyword over here.

Once i got a private call in the middle of the night, the person on the phone told me not to go out with the binoculars again or he ll shoot me when i step out of my house...... i was 19, and that wasnt many years ago. Needless to say how it affected me, else that i just grew stronger in beleiving that these people have no right to blast birds as they please and something had to be done.

Hunters are pisssed off cause us birdwatchers witness their wrong doings....this is similar to the huntng fraternity weaning about foreigners that will come here to trespass private land.... The time when they were the only ones in the countryside and doing what they want is over, birds are not just theirs but they are mine too, a maltese with an eligible vote just like them.

 

[Martin Thomas]

Kestrel ~ You're a credit to the global ornathological community as well as being a model spokesperson for your nation. Thank you for standing up and making your voice heard hear and in Malta.

I sincerely hope that those of us who share your beliefs and moral standards here can support you in any way possible. Together we will ultimately defeat the gun loving hunters (legal and illegal) who currently stain Malta's reputation with the blood of the birds they kill.

 

[chris butterworth]

Hi Kestrel, I, and many other birders, can only commend those Maltese that support the conservation of wildlife in Malta. The fact that these so called "men" have to phone a 19 year old in the middle of the night to make a death threat shows that even they know their arguments for blasting everything out of the sky are bankrupt and that the tide is turning against them, even in their homeland. The more we bring this issue to the notice of the Maltese Govt ( they'll get so fed up with people getting on their case that they will either do something about it, or come out in favour of breaking EU law) and support the efforts being made on Malta by dedicated people the greater the chance of stoping this massacre
Chris

 

[joannec]

Once i got a private call in the middle of the night, the person on the phone told me not to go out with the binoculars again or he ll shoot me when i step out of my house...... i was 19, and that wasnt many years ago..

That is absolutely shocking Kestrel. You are a brave man and a credit to your country.

Out of interest, what percentage of the population, in your opinion, is against this mindless slaughter of migrating birds and those in favour of the so called hunters? As has become apparent on this thread there is a deep cultural attachment to shooting all kinds of birds for sport in Malta. Are ideas about it changing in recent years among the general (non hunting) population?

 

[Nightranger]

Malta is at least 300km SW of the path taken by narrow-front migrating birds using the Central Mediterranean flyway. The line these birds take is the one between Cap Bon in Tunisia and Marsala in Western Sicily. Therefore Malta is definitely not in the mainstream of the Central Meditteranean flyway, but off its outer fringe. Source: UN/FAO/OIE Migratory Birds' Flyways 2005. It is a known fact, especially in hunting circles, that the numbers of migrating game birds that arrive in Malta is negligible.
I can't point you to a documented source on this one because it was said by an EU bird expert that was giving a talk here in Malta some time in the late 90's. He said that it is estimated that of all the migrating population of European birds, 0.1% pass through Malta.

There is some clever wording here because Gallina wants to paint the picture of Malta being outside the Central Mediterranean flyway but in fact, he clearly indicates it is not. Interestingly, Gallina also mentions that 0.1% of migrating birds pass through Malta but the key phrase is 'all the migrating population of European birds. This figure (I cannot confirm whether it is accurate, BTW) would have meant more had he offered it as a component of the CM flyway numbers.

Secondly, he clearly indicates that the source of this information was through a public address and not from a peer-reviewed study paper. Basically, anyone can make up figures of this sort even if the object of the talk had not (at the time) been aimed at dismissing Malta's importance as a migration route. Unfortunately, this makes Gallina's submission on this point inadmissable as evidence unless he can point to a source for the information. The name of the speaker is not important but it is interesting that Gallina's memory seems wanting when it comes to potentially important points that may wreck his argument.

I honestly don't personally know anyone that would or has shot at a protected species but yes, i'm sure that there are people out there that do, so I would encourage self regulation here. If I ever had to witness anything I'd report it immediately.

Sorry my friend but these are just hollow words. Please tell me what the permanent resident population of Malta is at present. Given law-abiding shooters and poachers will be operating in the same places and same times, it seems unlikely that they could so easily go unnoticed as is presented here.

 

[Gallina]

Mr Cantelo/Deb/Black Wheatear,

I believe I had mentioned this here some time ago but one of our hunting federations had, months ago, made a proposal to Govt for the setting up of a wildlife crime unit. Neither a reply nor an acknowledgment was forthcoming but, at last, in today's online papers I read that informed sources say that this is on the cards and that BirdLife Malta are already in the process of participating in such a unit. Hopefully, the hunting federation could also contribute to this unit.This augurs well for the gradual decline in poaching and is at least a step in the right direction. I still maintain though that the only way to rid ourselves of this curse is for our justice system to dish out the maximum penalties to offenders. As i've had occasion to state here these can reach 2 years imprisonment and €14k fine. What better deterrent than hitting where it hurts.
Mr. Cantelo, I don't 'conveniently ignore' certain questions you or anyone asks, there really is too much to answer, I just try to stick to the more important issues.
During the course of the week, I hope i'll have the chance to go over and discuss the various points you raised earlier.
Oh and I wasn't refrring to you personally with the Bible reference, but the organisations that are doing such a good job of making Malta look like a bloodbath whilst doing an equally bad job at backing up their claims when it comes to reporting.

 

[Gallina]

Out of interest, what percentage of the population, in your opinion, is against this mindless slaughter of migrating birds and those in favour of the so called hunters? As has become apparent on this thread there is a deep cultural attachment to shooting all kinds of birds for sport in Malta. Are ideas about it changing in recent years among the general (non hunting) population?

I would say 99.99% of the Maltese population is against any form of illegal shooting of birds. Included in this figure would be all the law-abiding hunters. I'm not sure which thread yv been reading but I have still to come across remarks in favour of shooting ALL kinds of birds for sport in Malta. FYI there are roughly 15,000 hunters, the majority of which hunt for quail, dove and woodcock. There's a small pocket of rogues that also shoot at protected species. These are tarnishing Malta's and the hunter's image in general.
Yes ideas are changing mainly because of the hype and exaggerations and sensationalism created by BLM, screaming massacre throughout the seasonal passage with little to account for when presenting the hard facts. In the past, BLM and similar organisations mainly used the newspapers to spread their fabrications, but today, with widespread usage of the internet, their lies are reaching far more gullible people. I am not saying this in defense of poachers, because I condemn any form of illegal shooting, but I am against this and speak out because they are using dishonest means to achieve a declared aim of making Malta a hunt-free zone. This you may welcome of course, but I, as a legitimate hunter, cannot.

 

[Gallina]

There is some clever wording here because Gallina wants to paint the picture of Malta being outside the Central Mediterranean flyway but in fact, he clearly indicates it is not. Interestingly, Gallina also mentions that 0.1% of migrating birds pass through Malta but the key phrase is 'all the migrating population of European birds. This figure (I cannot confirm whether it is accurate, BTW) would have meant more had he offered it as a component of the CM flyway numbers.

Secondly, he clearly indicates that the source of this information was through a public address and not from a peer-reviewed study paper. Basically, anyone can make up figures of this sort even if the object of the talk had not (at the time) been aimed at dismissing Malta's importance as a migration route. Unfortunately, this makes Gallina's submission on this point inadmissable as evidence unless he can point to a source for the information. The name of the speaker is not important but it is interesting that Gallina's memory seems wanting when it comes to potentially important points that may wreck his argument.
Sorry my friend but these are just hollow words. Please tell me what the permanent resident population of Malta is at present. Given law-abiding shooters and poachers will be operating in the same places and same times, it seems unlikely that they could so easily go unnoticed as is presented here.

Precisely why I declared beforehand that I didn't add weight to my own comment, I quoted it as a matter of interest to those that might be interested, knowing full well that people blinded by wanting to make a point, even at the cost of being unfair will use it in a silly counter argument. Very predictable.
Hollow words? well maybe they sound as hollow as BL's words when they talk about the killing of hundreds and thousands of protected birds and contradict themselves in their own report and talk about 55 to be precise. And nobody questions them. Incredible.
Permanent population roughly 410,000
They go so easily unnoticed because it doesn't happen on the scale that others would have you believe it does.

 

[ColonelBlimp]

I would say 99.99% of the Maltese population is against any form of illegal shooting of birds.

So all the trouble is done by about 40 people? Excuse me for being a bit skeptical.

I still note no reply to my earlier posts.