Correct purchasing methods (1 Viewer)

[thisdudeisgood]

Good evening everyone

I have what could well be considered a strange question and need some advice if you could.

After much deliberation, internet / forum scouring and guided by my own previous brand experience / personal view preference etc (and many years away from the forum) I have decided to purchase a Premium Leica.

The personal financial situation has much improved in recent years (despite a divorce since my last postings) , so I guess the best place to ask the question since I'm buying a Leica is here on the Leica forum.

The purchase will be either an Ultravid HD + in 10x42 or a Noctivid 10x42. It will be new from a shop...which brings me to my question...that may ramble

We now live in a world gone completely mad so I am unable to travel to compare these two binoculars side by side. Thus I have resorted to sending out various emails to online stores asking whether they provide mail order loan units to compare (to give a general comparison, even though they may be knocked about by previous prospective buyers). The answer is NEIN!

Most say they offer a 14 day return / exchange policy. That's very nice. But I am looking for a mint example and so I asked the question to the retailers...Does this mean if I purchase a 'New' unit then there is a chance / likelihood someone else has had it for a while, didn't like it and returned it; meaning I'm actually buying a unit someone else has used before and therefore not new at all?

The answers I got was invariably...'the likelihood of that is very small'...which to me means yes indeed you will receive a unit that no-one else wanted.

Now I may be being a bit exacting here but £2000 is a lot of money and so my (perhaps strange) question to the forum is this ..Should a new Noctivid / Ultravid come in a box that is factory sealed / proof of not being opened after leaving the factory?

The main reason I ask is I once bought a Zeiss 8x32 conquest HD online from a mainstream UK retailer 'NEW' (I'm in Scotland) and the thing was scrap (Zeiss has inferior build quality anyway but this was obviously a joke, well used, box roughed / accessories dirty etc)...needless to say I scalded the seller and shamed them for daring to sell such items, returned / refunded immediately...but an unpleasant purchasing experience, one of the most unbelievably horrendous ones I've ever experienced.

Do new Noctivids / Ultravids come in a box factory sealed?

And another sneaky question: are there any major differences in the rubber armour between the standard black Noctivid and the Olive one?

Best Regards

Bren

 

[jring]

Hi Bren,

and welcome back!

Not really able to help with your current Leica cravings - the only pair in my collection that comes close is a green Leitz Trini BA 7x42 - which I like a lot.

But have you seen that Zeiss offers what you want? So maybe try an SF?

ZEISS launches new “TryZEISS” scheme in the UK

Customers can now enjoy a free 48 hour hire of a variety of ZEISS products Optics from ZEISS have a legendary reputation. Generations of nature lovers swear by their ZEISS optics – many of them are still in constant use today. However, we understand that buying new optics can represent a...

www.birdforum.net

Joachim, who thinks that nowadays Leica charges 100 quid extra for every letter as a hype surcharge... like that other 5 letter company with the half eaten fruit for a logo....

 

[thisdudeisgood]

Hello jring and thanks for your reply

Although its utterly irrelevant to my question...(this adds to my world gone mad hypothesis)...perhaps you could provide some useful information regarding Zeiss units as a comparison?

Do new mint factory Zeiss units come in a sealed box from the factory?

Many thanks

 

[jan van daalen]

Hi Bren,

All new Leica's come in a sealed white carton box and inside that is the original box.
I don't know who told you "Nein" (your ex?), but that is how they come in. The retailer/dealer just has to get a sample out of his stock and send you such a unit.
^%&&**(&^....I get this hardly out of my comp, but maybe the best way for you is to contact the Leica Store and they will take care of you.
Edit: and yes, Zeiss comes in a sealed box.
Jan

 

[Binastro]

Yes, the Leica store sounds a good idea.

Ffordes of Inverness might be another.

At Ace optics, I ask for the knowledgeable salesman to open the box and check that the binocular is in first class condition, collimated etc.

I also did this when buying the Sony A7S camera from another store. I asked them to check that it had the latest software.
The box arrived with a sticker saying it had been opened pointing out my request.

Because of sample variation I think that is really pretty pointless asking to try a sample and then return it.

When I was able to visit shops I often bought the demonstrator rather than a new boxed similar binocular.
The demonstrator may well be better than the one in the box.

With lower priced binoculars, I have tried six, even twelve units in the shop and bought the best or two of the best.

With the 7 day shop 6x18 waterproof I bought thirty.
10 were good.
10 were acceptable.
10 were rubbish, but at £7.50 each even these can be cut in half to make monoculars with full focus, with most being O.K.
Most of these pocket binoculars were given to friends and relatives and are still in use.

Regards,
B.

 

[Pileatus]

I believe the Noctivid is a definite improvement over the Ultravid.

 

[Mike F]

Hi Bren,

I totally understand where you're coming from!

Firstly, Jan is correct (of course) in that new Leicas come in a cardboard outer sleeve box which has a seal. If the seal is broken or tampered with you know that someone has had a look inside!

Secondly, is that necessarily a bad thing? I totally understand that you wouldn't want it to be the case, but as Binastro points out, sometimes the best bins in the shop are the demonstrators, so just because someone's had their grubby mitts on the binocular doesn't mean anything about whether it's a good example or not. However, although it is the case that there are better and worse examples (as with every manufactured object). One big advantage of buying a premium brand like Leica is that in reality the differences are extremely small - you might find a slight cosmetic flaw if you look closely enough, or the occasional speck of dust, but the vast majority will more than satisfy the vast majority of purchasers. There are undeniably small differences in the optics between examples as well, but again, they are very small.*

As far as buying, I've almost always bought online, simply because of the distance to the nearest dealer where I live (in Finland). I've also bought what I have at extremely competitive prices, often waiting until I see what I want at a good price. However, if I lived within striking distance of a good dealer I would certainly prefer to buy that way and I wouldn't mind paying a premium for the privilege of being able to try different models and for the personal service that one can hope for from a good specialist dealer. As it is at the moment with you not being able to travel to a dealer some of those advantages are negated, but there are still benefits in buying from a dealer by mail order. Even so, you are ultimately going to be limited in the choice of the exact binocular that you can buy. A dealer isn't going to want to let you try every example of Noctivid 10x42 that he has in the shop precisely because there are fussy customers like you (and me!) who want an example with a sealed box!

If I was you I would just buy the two binoculars you're interested in online and return the one you don't want. If it really matters that much to you that it's absolutely mint (and I do understand that) then you will be able to see if it is or not. If not, return it and ask for another one (which might not be quite so good optically*). The only thing then is that you will have to live with the fact that you've 'unsealed' a brand new binocular and tried it out - the very thing that you don't want to receive.... I wouldn't worry though, and I wouldn't worry personally if I received one that had been opened, as long as it was in mint condition - just because someone has had a look through it and not bought it doesn't mean that it's a bad example!

Finally, I own a Noctivid 10x42 and highly recommend it! I have a 7x and 12x UVHD+ as well and they are also exceptional binoculars, but IMHO the Noctivid is a very special binocular. I'd be surprised if you prefer the UVHD+. Let us know how you get on!

All the best!

*I used to obsess about whether I had a good example of this or that, and in fact when I bought my Noctivid I actually managed to get three example into my possession at the same time to choose between (don't ask!) and no, I couldn't tell any difference between them optically.

 

[thisdudeisgood]

Is Joachim some kind of Guru on these issues? should I seek his teachings?

Hi Bren,

All new Leica's come in a sealed white carton box and inside that is the original box.
I don't know who told you "Nein" (your ex?), but that is how they come in. The retailer/dealer just has to get a sample out of his stock and send you such a unit.
^%&&**(&^....I get this hardly out of my comp, but maybe the best way for you is to contact the Leica Store and they will take care of you.
Edit: and yes, Zeiss comes in a sealed box.
Jan

Thanks Jan that's useful info much appreciated

 

[thisdudeisgood]

Yes, the Leica store sounds a good idea.

Ffordes of Inverness might be another.

At Ace optics, I ask for the knowledgeable salesman to open the box and check that the binocular is in first class condition, collimated etc.

I also did this when buying the Sony A7S camera from another store. I asked them to check that it had the latest software.
The box arrived with a sticker saying it had been opened pointing out my request.

Because of sample variation I think that is really pretty pointless asking to try a sample and then return it.

When I was able to visit shops I often bought the demonstrator rather than a new boxed similar binocular.
The demonstrator may well be better than the one in the box.

With lower priced binoculars, I have tried six, even twelve units in the shop and bought the best or two of the best.

With the 7 day shop 6x18 waterproof I bought thirty.
10 were good.
10 were acceptable.
10 were rubbish, but at £7.50 each even these can be cut in half to make monoculars with full focus, with most being O.K.
Most of these pocket binoculars were given to friends and relatives and are still in use.

Regards,
B.

🧐😅 Thanks for those words of wisdom Binastro, although the Leica store is £300 odd more for a Noctivid! I have used Ace optics before too and had good service.

 

[thisdudeisgood]

I believe the Noctivid is a definite improvement over the Ultravid.

Glad to hear that as I'm leaning towards the Noctivid, thanks

 

[jan van daalen]

Is Joachim some kind of Guru on these issues? should I seek his teachings?

Thanks Jan that's useful info much appreciated

Ehhh....is Joachim your ex?.........

 

[thisdudeisgood]

Hi Bren,

I totally understand where you're coming from!

Firstly, Jan is correct (of course) in that new Leicas come in a cardboard outer sleeve box which has a seal. If the seal is broken or tampered with you know that someone has had a look inside!

Secondly, is that necessarily a bad thing? I totally understand that you wouldn't want it to be the case, but as Binastro points out, sometimes the best bins in the shop are the demonstrators, so just because someone's had their grubby mitts on the binocular doesn't mean anything about whether it's a good example or not. However, although it is the case that there are better and worse examples (as with every manufactured object). One big advantage of buying a premium brand like Leica is that in reality the differences are extremely small - you might find a slight cosmetic flaw if you look closely enough, or the occasional speck of dust, but the vast majority will more than satisfy the vast majority of purchasers. There are undeniably small differences in the optics between examples as well, but again, they are very small.*

As far as buying, I've almost always bought online, simply because of the distance to the nearest dealer where I live (in Finland). I've also bought what I have at extremely competitive prices, often waiting until I see what I want at a good price. However, if I lived within striking distance of a good dealer I would certainly prefer to buy that way and I wouldn't mind paying a premium for the privilege of being able to try different models and for the personal service that one can hope for from a good specialist dealer. As it is at the moment with you not being able to travel to a dealer some of those advantages are negated, but there are still benefits in buying from a dealer by mail order. Even so, you are ultimately going to be limited in the choice of the exact binocular that you can buy. A dealer isn't going to want to let you try every example of Noctivid 10x42 that he has in the shop precisely because there are fussy customers like you (and me!) who want an example with a sealed box!

If I was you I would just buy the two binoculars you're interested in online and return the one you don't want. If it really matters that much to you that it's absolutely mint (and I do understand that) then you will be able to see if it is or not. If not, return it and ask for another one (which might not be quite so good optically*). The only thing then is that you will have to live with the fact that you've 'unsealed' a brand new binocular and tried it out - the very thing that you don't want to receive.... I wouldn't worry though, and I wouldn't worry personally if I received one that had been opened, as long as it was in mint condition - just because someone has had a look through it and not bought it doesn't mean that it's a bad example!

Finally, I own a Noctivid 10x42 and highly recommend it! I have a 7x and 12x UVHD+ as well and they are also exceptional binoculars, but IMHO the Noctivid is a very special binocular. I'd be surprised if you prefer the UVHD+. Let us know how you get on!

All the best!

*I used to obsess about whether I had a good example of this or that, and in fact when I bought my Noctivid I actually managed to get three example into my possession at the same time to choose between (don't ask!) and no, I couldn't tell any difference between them optically.

Hi Mike and thanks very much for your views, much appreciated.

Now I've discovered info I didn't know (thanks Forum) re the sealed outer cardboard box from Leica. You all make great points.

I never used to be a particularly fussy buyer and have bought many Bins of various quality online before and been happy but the last few times I've had some bad online buying experiences which has shaken my faith somewhat (unbelievably so in the Zeiss case I mention above, that really was comical, I might even have put pictures of the thing on here a while ago to prove how ridiculous the unit was, I can't remember).

Although to be fair some of these purchases have been via eBay (generally a really bad idea for binocular buying) and not dealers. My last purchase was a Vanguard Endeavor EDII 10x42 which was advertised as mint that I got for a 'bargain'. It was indeed mint in all respects other than a tiny fleck at the bottom of the left barrel, not dust but a chip in a prism or lens perhaps, anyway it was too much bother to send back so I've just kept it but it does bug me a little.

I think its a kind of sales scenario whereby it is a natural instinct to get rid of less valuable / slightly flawed stock first and retain exemplary examples for physical store visitors. This may be untrue and I may be being unfair but it makes sense and is just human nature. If the online buyer doesn't complain then fine, a flawed unit gone off the stock sheet. If they do return it no problem, refund them and send it out again to the next online buyer.

Do retailers ever send examples with flaws back to the manufacturers for refunds? I don't know. Also before a unit is packaged for shipping from the factory does it go through for example a collimation examination etc?

I appreciate all your good points but on balance I want a mint / sealed box...now that I know that I can ask for that given your answers above I will do so. Also I really am thinking of just going with the Noctivid since I can but what about the Olive vs Black rubber? Can anyone say if there is a difference. I guess the Noctivid has been on the market long enough now this evaluation may have been made by someone?

Thanks again everyone

 

[thisdudeisgood]

Ehhh....is Joachim your ex?.........

😅 no, the Ex had Teets n long blonde hair

 

[thisdudeisgood]

Noctivid 10x42 olive now being ordered for me direct from Germany, unmolested! via some fabulous customer service from Ace Optics Bath. Amazing customer service and best price. 👍🏻

 

[Mike F]

Noctivid 10x42 olive now being ordered for me direct from Germany, unmolested! via some fabulous customer service from Ace Optics Bath. Amazing customer service and best price. 👍🏻

Great! I have no experience of the black vs the green rubber armouring. My expectation would be that there is no difference. There are however differences between different Leica models. My Trinovid, Ultravids and Noctivid all have a different texture and feel to the rubber. I will tell yo that IMO the Noctivid has the best feel to it - not too smooth, not too rough, not too sticky. The best judged look and feel of all the ones I have.
Glad that you found a good dealer - they have a very good reputation, I know, and that you managed to get a good price. You won't be disappointed with the Noctivid I'm sure!

PS Just as a matter of interest, and at the risk of getting political (not my aim), will you have to pay the import duties on your purchase now as it's coming from the EU, or is the dealer absorbing those extra costs?

 

[jring]

Noctivid 10x42 olive now being ordered for me direct from Germany, unmolested! via some fabulous customer service from Ace Optics Bath. Amazing customer service and best price. 👍🏻

Hi,

enjoy your Noctivids - I have not been able to test those so far - unlike the UV series.

And no, if Ace Optics orders a pair in Wetzlar, even if there is customs for B2B sales now (not sure, only heard about B2C being hit with it so far), it will be paid by Ace Optics - although it will probably be priced in...

Joachim, not a fan of Leica or Apple...

 

[Plingplang]

This thread makes me think. I plan to buy one glass, and my idea is to order 3 or 4 (Leica UV 8x32, Swaro EL, Zeiss SF, and probably Swaro CL 8x30) and send back all but one. The reason is that I have no experience with alpha bins and looking through one at a dealer will not be enough; I will need 1-2 weeks to properly evaluate. I thought that would be OK, as many people on this forum seem to send back bins; some notoriously so. Now I realise that for others sealed and untouched boxes are important, while I would unsealand send back 3 bins. Maybe I have to rethink that strategy.

 

[Patudo]

I will need 1-2 weeks to properly evaluate. I thought that would be OK, as many people on this forum seem to send back bins; some notoriously so. Now I realise that for others sealed and untouched boxes are important, while I would unseal and send back 3 bins. Maybe I have to rethink that strategy.

You are perfectly within your rights to open, try, and send back as many binoculars as you've ordered, if your agreement with the seller allows you to do that. What I object to (this is only my personal opinion, and maybe I'm the only one here who thinks so, but) is sellers advertising binoculars that have been gleefully test driven by the likes of d***o for a week or more as new/unused.

Now, all the binoculars I currently own myself are secondhand, and some are very much used; I have no problem with buying or using binoculars that have been used - indeed, used hard - by another owner (if the price is right, of course). But I do have a problem with considering binoculars that have been test driven for up to a week, maybe by more than one person, being advertised (and priced) as absolutely new/unused. Call them something else - "mint condition" is fine, and also let the buyer know how many times they have been tried out. Yeah, pigs might fly...

 

[thisdudeisgood]

Great! I have no experience of the black vs the green rubber armouring. My expectation would be that there is no difference. There are however differences between different Leica models. My Trinovid, Ultravids and Noctivid all have a different texture and feel to the rubber. I will tell yo that IMO the Noctivid has the best feel to it - not too smooth, not too rough, not too sticky. The best judged look and feel of all the ones I have.
Glad that you found a good dealer - they have a very good reputation, I know, and that you managed to get a good price. You won't be disappointed with the Noctivid I'm sure!

PS Just as a matter of interest, and at the risk of getting political (not my aim), will you have to pay the import duties on your purchase now as it's coming from the EU, or is the dealer absorbing those extra costs?

Hi Mike

I jumped the Gun a bit, As the UK dealer had no olive 10x42 in stock he kindly asked Leica Germany for an Eta of new stock of them.(I assumed it wouldn't be an issue so told you guys I'd ordered them) however unfortunately Leica came back to him after my post and told him that they expect to have some in March but are unsure when, so I haven't ordered them just yet but am all set to as soon as possible. I find this strange as you would think they (Leica) would know the exact date of availability as the units are manufactured there?

For what it's worth, on the money side of things the UK shop told me the price of the Olive unit, even though it was coming from Germany, would be the same as the UK price for the black units he had in stock. Very competitive and lowest UK price I've seen, so I guess no further taxes will apply re EU situation.

Writing this from a mobile so forgive the rush

 

[thisdudeisgood]

You are perfectly within your rights to open, try, and send back as many binoculars as you've ordered, if your agreement with the seller allows you to do that. What I object to (this is only my personal opinion, and maybe I'm the only one here who thinks so, but) is sellers advertising binoculars that have been gleefully test driven by the likes of d***o for a week or more as new/unused.

Now, all the binoculars I currently own myself are secondhand, and some are very much used; I have no problem with buying or using binoculars that have been used - indeed, used hard - by another owner (if the price is right, of course). But I do have a problem with considering binoculars that have been test driven for up to a week, maybe by more than one person, being advertised (and priced) as absolutely new/unused. Call them something else - "mint condition" is fine, and also let the buyer know how many times they have been tried out. Yeah, pigs might fly...

Yes I agree with you, I think well test driven bins are sold as 'new' all the time. I myself have purchased such units. It's dishonest and unscrupulous, that's the main reason I asked my starting question as it troubles me.

I cannot understand why certified / accredited dealers (is that the correct term?) aren't supplied by the manufacturer with a dedicated trial model of each popular spec for prospective byers to try out by post, say for a week at a time with a deposit required for malicious or careless damage to deter fraud. It seems really strange to me you must go physically into a store or have used someone else's unit (both of which are usually just a few minutes exposure) People end up just reading about the pro's and con's of models on a forum, which is useful but not ideal.