Evidence for the Survival of the Ivory-Billed Woodpecker (3 Viewers)

[Curtis Croulet]

Curtis--you've seen the DVD. Did you see a white bill, and virtually all of the ivory-bill's field marks?

I can't see much of anything. When I heard about the analysis of this video, I imagined that CIA-type techniques were being employed to dig out heretofore unimagined detail. Maybe somebody did just that, but it's not on this DVD.

 

[Curtis Croulet]

The Summer 2005 edition of the Living Bird (a Cornell Laboratory of Ornithology publication) is devoted entirely to the ivorybill, and has among other items a piece by James T. Tanner that is worth reading (or re-reading).

I don't think I've received this issue. What's on the cover?

 

[hgr389]

In order for it to be a pileated, we must postulate a bird well outside the known size range of the species, and in addition it needs to be leucistic (or piebald)

Here is precisely where we disagree. I think the bird in the video may well be a normally-sized, normally-plumaged Pileated.

Regarding the size--again, anyone interested should take the time to look closely at images A and B on page 9 of the Supporting Online Materials. Looking at that smudge, do you really think that anyone can reliably tell you whether the wrist-to-tailtip measurement of the bird was 33 centimeters, versus 31 centimeters?

Regarding the perceived white plumage--again, Cornell said: "With these distances and light conditions, bleeding tends to exaggerate the apparent extent of white in the wings." Also, some of the extensive white in the video may be the flashing white wing linings of the Pileated.

Please note that I'm not at all sure that the video and the sightings were all of the same individual bird. I think it's possible that the video shows a normal Pileated, and that the sightings were all of a partially leucistic Pileated.

 

[hgr389]

I agree. I would also like the opinions of everyone on a third point - the direct flight of the bird in the video. Would the straight flight exhibited be characteristic of the Pileated? To my knowledge, no. Has there not been much written about the flight of the Ivorybill vs the Pileated? If you watch the video to the end, there is clearly no undulation at all in the visible frames. Most if not all Pileateds I've seen have paused mid-flight creating an undulation - however not to the extent of the American Goldfinch, for example.

Yes, I think the straight flight exhibited on the video is characteristic of a Pileated. This is an "escape flight" (I believe someone calculated 8.5 flaps per second), and at that flap rate, I don't think there is much time for pausing and undulating.

 

[Cornell75]

I don't think I've received this issue. What's on the cover?

The cover is an Arthur Allen photograph of a male ivorybill at a nest or roost hole. This photograph, under the magazine title Living Bird, is a bit of a comment in and of itself!

I just received the issue yesterday.

 

[Edward woodwood]

blimey

i see BF is still on the realms of the x files and geek country

the birds have been observed several times by some of the best ornithologists in the Americas

it's gen

end of

cannot understand why this thread is here?

Tim

 

[Curtis Croulet]

I just received the issue yesterday.

Oh. We get most of our magazines much later than the eastern part of the country. So it should still be on its way.

 

[Curtis Croulet]

On the video: I can't see the white bill on the perched bird (this is silly!), but it does look like it has extensive white on the back. I might barely be able to accept leucistic Pileated, but normal Pileated -- no.

Edited to add: There's a series of presentations on the IBWO at the AOU meeting tomorrow morning (Wed, Aug 24) and a talk by John Fitzpatrick on Thursday evening.

 

[hgr389]

the birds have been observed several times by some of the best ornithologists in the Americas
Tim

Can you please name some of these ornithologists?

I know that Gene Sparling, Tim Gallagher, Bobby Harrison, and David Luneau all reported brief sightings, but none of those fellows is an ornithologist...

 

[Edward woodwood]

no

read the papers from Cornell

this thread is absurd

keep your ramblings to conspiracy websites

Tim

 

[Curtis Croulet]

Ornithologists will be presenting evidence in Santa Barbara tomorrow and Thursday.

 

[Steve]

Gentlemen and Tim calm yourselves please !!

 

[curunir]

Regarding the size--again, anyone interested should take the time to look closely at images A and B on page 9 of the Supporting Online Materials. Looking at that smudge, do you really think that anyone can reliably tell you whether the wrist-to-tailtip measurement of the bird was 33 centimeters, versus 31 centimeters?

Why does it matter what we think, we're lay people here remember?

 

[Edward woodwood]

Why does it matter what we think, we're lay people here remember?

dont know bout that

seems everyone here knows more than the experts

as usual

Tim

 

[curunir]

Can you please name some of these ornithologists?

I know that Gene Sparling, Tim Gallagher, Bobby Harrison, and David Luneau all reported brief sightings, but none of those fellows is an ornithologist...

D. Sibley isn't a professional ornithologist either from what I gather. That being said, Bill Gates isn't a computer scientist, but he does have some influence in the field.

 

[choupique1]

if... there were only 20 to 30 woodducks or wild turkeys in LA do you think you would ever get to see them


and .. big foot in LA... come on now...

 

[Cornell75]

Why does it matter what we think, we're lay people here remember?

It does matter what we think. Since the beginning of Audubon Christmas Bird Counts (or before), organized "citizen science" has provided a great deal of data for scientific investigations, through organizations like Audubon, Bird Studies Canada, the Hawk Mountain Sanctuary, the RSPB (I suppose), and programs like eBird. Look at the AOU Checklist and see the vast amount of distribution data that comes from "us". Remember, the initial hint of an ivorybill in Arkansas came from someone who probably would not call himself an ornithologist.

However, in the situation at hand, better to examine the evidence and publish your own conclusions, as Fitzpatrick et al. have done, than merely assert that you can't tell much from the video evidence. They have published their evidence (and made it available to others, I understand), methods and conclusions; an independent demonstration that the conclusions are or are not reproducible would be a real contribution to science in the traditional manner.

 

[curunir]

Uk

Hey, any of the bookmakers in the UK got a line on the big woodie? If so, how is the wager posited?

 

[hgr389]

Why does it matter what we think, we're lay people here remember?

To me, this is a rather humorous turn of events.

A week or two ago, I took a lot of flak here along the lines of "you, HGR, are a mere lay person; who are you to question the eminent ornithologists on the Cornell search team?"

Now, after I point out that lots of the key Cornell observers were not ornithologists themselves, it seems that the tone has changed. Now, it seems evident that lay people can, in fact, have credible things to say.

And I completely agree with this new tone. I think the playing field is quite level here. No Cornell team member (and basically no outsider) has a single confirmed moment of IBWO field experience. If you have internet access and the ability to read and think logically, you may well have something credible to say. We all basically have access to the same Cornell paper, the same historical books, the same original Luneau DVD, etc.

I would argue that an amateur birder combing through all this info may have credible opinions on this subject. On the other hand, an eminent ornithologist who is getting all his IBWO updates via the New York Times may not have much to add.

 

[Steve]

Hey, any of the bookmakers in the UK got a line on the big woodie? If so, how is the wager posited?

I will give you any 100/1 against !