France, warbler (1 Viewer)

[CAU]

It´s worth noting that when CAU mention toe colour as a good separating feature between March and Reed, he actually is refering to claws, not toe.

No problem . I know that the claw colour is an even better feature, but the leg colour is sometimes also useful. Svensson states that it is useless only for adult birds. Nevertheless, the soles on Reed Warblers are typically yellow, I don't think anyone wants to contradict this.

 

[KnockerNorton]

But is that validated anywhere? Any reliable studies?

Show me yours and I'll show you mine This is getting silly though. The bird has a longish tail, no gape flange, no obvious juvenile features. It is clearly not a very young (growing) bird. It may be a short-billed individual, but then we're getting into talk of aberrant features to make the bird fit our arguments, rather than identifying the bird by the features shown. I could just as easily claim that the bird is a young Garden Warbler, hence the bill doesn't fit the shape that you say it should (even though it looks fine for GW to me - blunt and stubby).

I still see no gape on this Reed Warbler, which has a clearly shorter bill than an adult:
http://cbcphotocomp.blogspot.com/2007_12_01_archive.html

Again, you use that link of a bird facing towards the camera! Of course the bill will look shorter, as you're looking at a more acute angle!! And I can see clear traces of gape in pics 1 and 3.

It seems that CAU is certain in his own mind as to what the bird definitely is (not sure if anyone else on the thread is), although his arguments fail to convince me that it is undoubtedly a Reed Warbler. It may well be a Reed Warbler, but I'm far from convinced. It looks more like a Garden Warbler to me, but from the information (pics) available, i don't think anyone can mount a watertight case either way. When identification hinges on bills not being grown on full-grown birds and the colour of the underneath of the hind toe, I think it's time to call it a stalemate.

 

[CAU]

Show me yours and I'll show you mine This is getting silly though. The bird has a longish tail, no gape flange, no obvious juvenile features. It is clearly not a very young (growing) bird.

Svensson says in his passerine guide that on most passerines the yellow gape is visible for about a few days after the bird has left the nest. He says further that the bill reaches maximum length usually a few weeks after the bird has left the nest.

It seems that CAU is certain in his own mind as to what the bird definitely is

I think it's time to call it a stalemate.

I agree with this

 

[KnockerNorton]

Svensson says in his passerine guide that on most passerines the yellow gape is visible for about a few days after the bird has left the nest.

I haven't got Svensson with me, but this is clearly ambiguous and also a bit misleading imo. Juvs often show traces of gape for a few weeks after leaving the nest (see BWP entry for Willow Tit for one example off the top of my head).

these birds are clearly more than a few *days* out of the nest (look at tail length, they all fledge with very short tails):
http://www.digiscoped.com/DSLR/youngdunnock.jpg
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1257/838251298_75a33bbcac.jpg?v=0
http://farm2.static.flickr.com/1296/599274577_8f92c475f5.jpg?v=0

Anyway, enough! (please!!).

 

[hannu]

After having a good look, I believe this looks more like a Garden warbler tail.
Don't know how many feather we can't see, but of the ones we do see: Outer feather a mm or so longer, followed by two with equal lenght.
It may also be hard to fit the 12 tail feathers of a Reed in there

Ekopa, could you describe the general environment. It's not at all conclusive this time of the year, but a Garden warbler that wants to take a bath has to be near some form of water

Juv Reed has paler tf tips in this time of year...
See the attached photo, how much light can change colours in the same juv Reed tail..

 

[erwin]

Well it doesn't look like plumage detail analysis is going to give important clues either way.
Then it's back to basics. A resonably experienced birdwatcher like me is supposed to be able to tell the difference between two familiar species like garden and reed in a 2 second view of the quality of the first pic.
In this case it took me a few seconds more, because I had to compensate for the wet breast feathers and the not so obvious environment.
I will also include the additional info provided by Ekopa from now on.

A birdwatcher walks in a forest towards a lake edge. Two greyish medium sized warblers fly out and make it to the canopy. One stays in view. It makes a checking sound and sits in an alert horizontal stance on a flat lying reed stem. It's breast looks wet so it problably had a bath. It looks grayish with little contrast, round headed and only has light face markings except an eyering. It has thick dark grey tarsi and a short stubby bill. Our birdwather thinks w t h oh Garden Warbler. Then the bird shows it back, where we note a warmer color rump, and disappears. The birdwatcher checks his Collins guide for the warmer rump, says yep, notes 3 GW and moves on.

Did our birdwatcher make a mistake? Maybe, maybe not. But if we look at that bill: Not only the lenght but also the color pattern and the thickness are wrong for RW in my opinion. There is a ca. 30 degree angle between the upper and lower edge, while the reference RW with short bill from CAU just has a short pin of a bill.
So while the single aspects of this bill are debatable, the combination of the three aspects is pretty hard evidence IMO.

 

[Mole1]

Are we still going on this one?

I have tried really hard to see a Garden Warbler by looking at the photo and just can't. I would have id'ed the bird as a Reed in the middle paragraph of Erwin's last message rather than a Garden based on the same features on view. Maybe I will have made a mistake but I still go home happy thinking that I identified a strange looking Reed Warbler correctly.

The beak may not fit a fully grown Reed Warbler, but IMHO the bill does not fit Garden either. Face favours Reed over Garden for me as well. The pro Garden Warbler arguments seem to rely on the bird showing typical rump and tail colouring of a Reed? I am still with CAU on this one.

Might be best to agree to disagree or should we have a democratic vote?

 

[KnockerNorton]

The beak may not fit a fully grown Reed Warbler, but IMHO the bill does not fit Garden either.

so it WAS a chiffchaff all along!

 

[KnockerNorton]

A birdwatcher walks in a forest towards a lake edge.....

I thought that was going to be the beginning of a good joke then, but it kinda just fizzled out.