Gamekeeper fined £500 (1 Viewer)

[nirofo]

surely, whether he knew he was being watched or not is irrelevant, if his actions were deemed suspect, he should not have been allowed to approach the nesting area, and the watchers shoud have made theirselves very visible to him.

mamo

Hi mamo

If he hadn't been allowed to approach the nesting area the watchers would not have had any grounds to apprehend him! Just carrying a shotgun is not generally an offence, carrying it in the nesting area of a Schedule One species with intent to use it is.

nirofo.

 

[Collster]

surely, whether he knew he was being watched or not is irrelevant, if his actions were deemed suspect, he should not have been allowed to approach the nesting area, and the watchers shoud have made theirselves very visible to him.

mamo

In an ideal world they would have, but as has been explained to get a conviction he needed to be closer to it. It is incredibly difficult to get convictions with regards to persecution of raptors as the signs( dead birds) are not usually found until after the perpertrators are long gone. So any chance of getting a conviction mustn't be wasted by giving the accussed the chance to wriggle out of it,( didn't know they were there gov!) A few more convictions we could do with for this type of crime ,if you ask me

 

[Ian Bell]

Why dont the RSPB and SNH not ask for volunteers to watch these areas over the year,in particular breeding season ? It could work as a deterrent knowing the habitat of Schedule 1 Species was being watched.

 

[Anthony Morton]

Why dont the RSPB and SNH not ask for volunteers to watch these areas over the year,in particular breeding season ? It could work as a deterrent knowing the habitat of Schedule 1 Species was being watched.

Wouldn't this also encourage egg collectors to perhaps masquerade as volunteers as a means of gaining easy access to nest sites?

In that case, how would it be possible to decide who was friend and who was foe?

 

[Ian Bell]

Former Voluntary Wardens at RSPB reserves,such as Loch Garten etc,when re-applying to volunteer again,could be asked if they wanted to become involved.A Black throated Divers nest near Loch Garten failed last year due to anglers fishing near the nest.I stated then that volunteers could have been shifted fron Loch Garten,Insch Marshes to keep a watch on that nest.A circular letter to people who have in the past,gave their time to conservation,may like to become involved in this work.I believe the RSPB would have a large database of such people.I am not advocating any Tom,Dick or Harry should be involved.

 

[Collster]

Also have to bear in mind that a lot of these schedule 1 nest sites are found by people who work independantly( but inform RSPB), who may not want the sites disclosed to others. Sometimes the fact that people are in an area watching, may alert others to the fact that rare birds may be in an area when otherwise they might not have been noticed. Its just a great pity that in this day an age that birds are still at risk be it from eggers, gamekeepers whoever

 

[Edward woodwood]

I got an insight into how eggers work when my friends made the Egg Detectives documentary for Channel Four in the 90s

you would never believe how they find out about nesting birds' whereabouts... it's ingenious and all in the public domain. But i'm obviously never gonna divulge that on here. They did actually know MORE than the birders...

The Jourdain Society were an interesting bunch too

 

[Collster]

No, it wouldn't be a wise thing to underestimate the lengths some people will go to. Thats why i think its easier sometimes not to disclose the nest sites of rare birds to anyone. Even people who work for various agencies can sometimes inadvertently let the cat out of the bag

 

[Ian Bell]

I got an insight into how eggers work when my friends made the Egg Detectives documentary for Channel Four in the 90s

you would never believe how they find out about nesting birds' whereabouts... it's ingenious and all in the public domain. But i'm obviously never gonna divulge that on here. They did actually know MORE than the birders...

The Jourdain Society were an interesting bunch too

I remember watching that programme and have to admit the dedication and bird knowledge of these "eggers" was second to none.If I remember correctly,one of them found a Warblers nest in a dense thicket but knew exactly what he was looking for and where the nest would be.

 

[Jon K.]

Correct me if i am wrong but shouldent someone in possession of a firearm determin what they are looking at first befor they raise the firearm ?

[Well said Ben Nevis]

S. G.

Yes, you are wrong.

However; I will certainly not broach the subject of intent, as I have no idea what was in the gamekeeper's mind. Perhaps the court has some sort of power to ascertain thoughts and intent. In the States, we call that the "Thought Police". Thought Police are very much feared, as they have jurisdiction over so called "hate crimes", etc. Sort of Orwellian. Not everyone agrees with the concept.

But back to practicality; when a bird flushes; a hunter (or a poacher) will swing on it. It is instinctual. But the shooter had darn well better have made an ID before he (or she) fires, or face the consequences.

 

[nirofo]

I got an insight into how eggers work when my friends made the Egg Detectives documentary for Channel Four in the 90s

you would never believe how they find out about nesting birds' whereabouts... it's ingenious and all in the public domain. But i'm obviously never gonna divulge that on here. They did actually know MORE than the birders...

The Jourdain Society were an interesting bunch too

Hi Tim

I've been involved in Schedule One Raptor and other Schedule One nest recording and protection for more than 35 years, in that time I've found many new nests where the birds have nested for the very first time, in some cases within a very short time the nest has been robbed, (this is prior to reporting the nest to any organisations I must add). Now I am not so arrogant as to believe that I am the only person capable of finding these nests, the real eggers are devoted to their craft just as we are devoted to birds and their protection, they are just as well informed and know just as much about the birds as we do, it's just that their motives are at odds with ours! Many of the eggers have detailed maps showing nest location, alternative sites etc., going back years in some cases. Many are in league with gamekeepers who are only too willing to get the local Peregrine or Hen Harrier nest robbed, they inform the eggers or falconers that the nest is ready, they come along at say 4.00 o'clock on a Tuesday morning when there's nobody about, JOB DONE! Saves the keepers from having to commit themselves to the task and the eggers/falconers get the blame instead.

nirofo.

 

[s.g.]

Well, i just hope non of them have a twitch in there trigger finger!
just wonder how many shoot and ID later jon.

S. G.

 

[mamo]

Yes, you are wrong.

However; I will certainly not broach the subject of intent, as I have no idea what was in the gamekeeper's mind. Perhaps the court has some sort of power to ascertain thoughts and intent. In the States, we call that the "Thought Police". Thought Police are very much feared, as they have jurisdiction over so called "hate crimes", etc. Sort of Orwellian. Not everyone agrees with the concept.

But back to practicality; when a bird flushes; a hunter (or a poacher) will swing on it. It is instinctual. But the shooter had darn well better have made an ID before he (or she) fires, or face the consequences.

bit like Dick Cheney did :'D sorry, couldn't help myself

mamo

 

[Jon K.]

bit like Dick Cheney did :'D sorry, couldn't help myself

mamo

Exactly!! No apologies needed.

 

[sputnik]

Hi all.
Came across this forum purly by accident.
I have read it with great interest and found some of the comments to be total rot.
Before people comment with words like the birds will be slice-up in wind turbines, these people should do a bit of homework.
The turbines only turn very slowly, they only have three blades, if they were close enough to the ground a person could comfortably walk between the blade while they are turning. "Fat chance a raptor getting sliced & shreaded".
I have acually seen crows flying between the blades as they turn, with out any bother.
As reguards some of the other comments, ie."because he had a gun but didn't fire and was in the area of the birds where known persicution is known to go on he was guilty". Please!!! This is like saying someone in a shop where known shoplifting goes on and picks up an item to look at it before buying it, it definatly a shoplifter and should be fined.
What has happened to the world?? have so many people lost all shreads of common-sense.

 

[MKinHK]

Hi all.
Came across this forum purly by accident.
I have read it with great interest and found some of the comments to be total rot.
Before people comment with words like the birds will be slice-up in wind turbines, these people should do a bit of homework.
The turbines only turn very slowly, they only have three blades, if they were close enough to the ground a person could comfortably walk between the blade while they are turning. "Fat chance a raptor getting sliced & shreaded".
I have acually seen crows flying between the blades as they turn, with out any bother.
As reguards some of the other comments, ie."because he had a gun but didn't fire and was in the area of the birds where known persicution is known to go on he was guilty". Please!!! This is like saying someone in a shop where known shoplifting goes on and picks up an item to look at it before buying it, it definatly a shoplifter and should be fined.
What has happened to the world?? have so many people lost all shreads of common-sense.

Interesting take on the wind farm eagle mortality issue. So what happened to all those eagles found dead underneath wind turbines?

Did they die of a drug overdose, or melancholy, perhaps?

No no. I know! They'r not dead . . . its all a plot - they're just pretending! They just lie very still on the ground as if they were dead in order to discredit the great and noble (but viciously maligned) windfarm industry.

Its just that waking up again and flying away is difficult with a crushed skull.

 

[ESTEBANNIC]

A few lessons in basic Physics and you would find that the tips of the blades of these turbines go very fast.

Hi all.
Came across this forum purly by accident.
I have read it with great interest and found some of the comments to be total rot.
Before people comment with words like the birds will be slice-up in wind turbines, these people should do a bit of homework.
The turbines only turn very slowly, they only have three blades, if they were close enough to the ground a person could comfortably walk between the blade while they are turning. "Fat chance a raptor getting sliced & shreaded".
I have acually seen crows flying between the blades as they turn, with out any bother.
As reguards some of the other comments, ie."because he had a gun but didn't fire and was in the area of the birds where known persicution is known to go on he was guilty". Please!!! This is like saying someone in a shop where known shoplifting goes on and picks up an item to look at it before buying it, it definatly a shoplifter and should be fined.
What has happened to the world?? have so many people lost all shreads of common-sense.

 

[deborah4]

As reguards some of the other comments, ie."because he had a gun but didn't fire and was in the area of the birds where known persicution is known to go on he was guilty". Please!!! This is like saying someone in a shop where known shoplifting goes on and picks up an item to look at it before buying it, it definatly a shoplifter and should be fined.

As far as I recall, the gamekeeper was charged with an 'attempt' of the Offence. So if my memory serves me right, under the Criminal Attempts Act 1981 (s1) :

"If, with intent to commit an offence to which this section applies, this person does an act which is more than merely preparatory to the commission of an offence, he is guilty of Committing the Offence"

In other words, the above forms the actus rea (the 'act') necessary for establishing an inchoate offence, where 'attempt' is the issue.

Can't comment on the actual case or individual - However, the intention of a person accused of attempt, (mens rea), or if you like, 'the state of mind', of the accused is a matter to be established in Court, given all the evidence, background, locality of the particular person in relation to, or in the vicinity of, for example, a Harrier nest. However, being also in possession of a firearm capable of causing injury or killing birds, while in the vicinity of a Schedule 1 species could be deemed as an act 'more than merely preparatory' to secure a conviction of attempting to kill or injure wild birds', if intention to so do has been established.

As far as I know, would be the same for Attempted Theft: if person placed an article in their pocket before reaching the counter - enough to establish 'intention' for 'attempt' possibly - but act not completed until he/she has tried to leave the premises without paying. (Of course if he/she actually manages to leave the premises, the charge is Theft rather than Attempted Theft)

(incidently powers of arrest for 'attempt' of an offence are exactly the same as the powers of arrest provided for when the offence is actually being committed)

Came across this forum purly by accident.
I have read it with great interest and found some of the comments to be total rot.

"Fat chance a raptor getting sliced & shreaded".
I have acually seen crows flying between the blades as they turn, with out any bother.

Plenty more 'rot' like this on the windfarms threads, you could post your comments there (be careful though, evidence suggests you could get you sliced up by the response to opinions like this in the process )

 

[Collster]

Interesting take on the wind farm eagle mortality issue. So what happened to all those eagles found dead underneath wind turbines?

Did they die of a drug overdose, or melancholy, perhaps?

No no. I know! They'r not dead . . . its all a plot - they're just pretending! They just lie very still on the ground as if they were dead in order to discredit the great and noble (but viciously maligned) windfarm industry.

Its just that waking up again and flying away is difficult with a crushed skull.

:clap:

 

[nirofo]

It just goes to show what a blinkered view people have of the enviromental impact that these windmill monstrosities pose to our wildlife and the specially protected areas they are built in.

nirofo.