Is this a Caspian Gull? (1 Viewer)

[Lancey]

Dear all,
The videograbs below show a gull that I saw for just two minutes on 7th January. It didn't particularly grab my attention at the time I saw it, although I noted a jizz like an outsized immature Common Gull. It was only when I looked at the video more closely that Caspian-like features became apparent - namely the white head, the dark centred and pale edged tertials, the collar of neck streaks and the somewhat long legged and elegant structure.

However, if it is a 1st year Caspian Gull it is quite unlike the individuals I've seen before ( see videograb of a 1st winter seen on 21st December). For instance, the 1st winter Caspian in the photo shows brownish centred tertials which contrast with the black primaries. The bird I saw on the 7th January has white edged blacked centred tertials which are as dark as the primaries. Maybe this bird isn't as worn as some 1st winter caspians?

Nor does it appear to be as advanced as a 2nd winter Caspian either. So, I'm not only unsure of the bird's identity, but I'm unsure of its age too - although by the look of the juvenile brown coverts I'd opt for the gul being in 1st winter plumage.

The distinct anchor shaped markings on the mantle, the dark tipped bill with greenish base and the brownish speckling on the breast are the features I find noteworthy and it was these last two features which gave the bird the look of a 1st winter Common Gull. It doesn't seem to have the bulk of a Caspian Gull, although it could be a female which may explain it's lightness of structure.

Can anyone help to shed some light on this bird please?

Thanks,
Lancey

 

[dan pointon]

Hi Lancey,

Although I admittedly have a limited knowledge of gulls, I would be inclined to say that this bird is a Caspian Gull. The head shape looks almost perfect, especially in the shot of the bird in the water, and the eye appears fairly small, dark and beady. Also, the tertials have the typical pale edging to them, and, particularly in the first shot the chest appears rather full. The only non Casp feature I can find on this bird is the lack of markings on the flanks, though some marking appears to be present on the undertail coverts.

That's as much as I can answer for you, i'm sure that one of the gull experts will be along to answer your other questions, and probably put me right!!

Cheers

 

[Edward woodwood]

I'd say so.

Tim

 

[MSA]

Dwayne, as I read it, bird 5 is a different bird (a "definite" Caspian) and it's birds 1-4 that are being queried. Just going on these pics, the head on no. 5 looks quite flat-topped, but pic 1, best comparison on pose, looks more rounded. Could it be a Yellow-legged by any chance?

 

[dan pointon]

Dwayne, as I read it, bird 5 is a different bird (a "definite" Caspian) and it's birds 1-4 that are being queried. Just going on these pics, the head on no. 5 looks quite flat-topped, but pic 1, best comparison on pose, looks more rounded. Could it be a Yellow-legged by any chance?

Ah right!! The head shape of the bird in the water does indeed look better, but I assumed that it was just to do with posture or something else. When I said that the bird had no markings on the flanks, I was reffering to the bird standing, so maybe that would point towards this bird in fact not being a Casp? The head shape doesn't look as good as the picture of the bird in the water, so possibly you're right that it is YLG....

I think i'll leave this to JanJ or Lou Salomon!!!

Cheers,

 

[Edward woodwood]

ah i see

pic 5 is a different bird then?

5 IS a Caspian. I didn't look at others before but will now...

Tim

 

[lou salomon]

yes, 1-4 also looks good for 1st winter caspian too. 5 is a very classic ind.; primary wear varies a lot in young gulls thus brown or blackish colour. mantle is wrong for YLG etc. i'd say. i'll come back on this.

 

[JANJ]

On the spot Lancey! Are all the same bird, the upper 4 seems to have a different look in the covert region than the one in5? Looks like another bird.
As I see it there´s no problem with this/these and 5 is quite similar to this one:
http://www.netfugl.dk/pictures.php?id=showpicture&picture_id=8944
It´s a 1st winter bird, at least in 5, dark centered tertials worn juvenile greater coverts.
Second bird looks like a 2nd winter, but the juvenile tertials except the upper one which looks like a 2nd generation fearher, which some 1st winters moult in. It also seems to have moulted in new median coverts and there´s many grey scapulars. Individual variation is a common thing also in this species of course, so the familiar Caspian look is quite typical, and look at the long slender tibia.
JanJ
http://www.xs4all.nl/~calidris/caspian4w2.htm

 

[Lancey]

Gull I.D,

Dear all,
Thanks for helping with this. I am sorry for the confusion. The bird in the water (pic 5) is a Caspian Gull I saw on 21st December and it was because I couldn't see any comparison between the bird I saw on the 7th January (pics 1-4).

To sum up, is everyone of the opinion that the bird in pics 1-4 is a Caspian Gull (1w)?

Lancey

 

[lou salomon]

yes, but jan says it is a 2nd winter. most 2nd winters have a lot ad type mantle feathers which in this bird i don't see, or aren't those grey feathers black shafted? and i thought the primes were pointed, thus 1st generation.

 

[James Eaton]

Hi Lancey, agree with JanJ in that the bird in photos 1-4 appear to show a 2nd winter (though could be a well advanced 1st winter) Caspian Gull, due to moulted covers, extensively grey mantle, hindneck streaking and advanced tertial pattern. Though bill is still primarily dark. The 1st winters I've been observing this week in Derbyshire (4 individuals) are not as advanced in moult as this bird is, though 1 shows a much paler base to both mandibles.

 

[James Eaton]

Here is a photo of a 2nd winter Caspian Gull, which appears in a similar moult stage to the bird in question

http://cyberbirding.uib.no/gull/cag/3cy_02.php

 

[Lancey]

Caspian Gull

James,
Thanks for the link. I am still trying to convince myself it's a Caspian to be honest, it just didn't have the bulk of most Caspians, although maybe it is a female. Also, rather than a shaft streak on the mantle, the dark centres are actually anchor shaped. Do Caspians show this pattern?

Regards,
Lancey

 

[JANJ]

Not that it was a 2nd winter, had some problems to acctually see if the primary tips where pointed, just that it looked like one. The primaries would be blacker in a 2nd winter now (second generation) and there appear to be contrast between tertials and the primaries, so primaries looks bleached. Caspian Gull seems to wear faster than Herring and Yellow-legged, which means that the second generation scapulars that have a brownish hue when newly moulted, bleach to greyish, creating the greyish 2nd winter impression.
I´d say 1st winter.

JanJ

 

[Lancey]

1st winter Caspian Gull

JanJ,
Thanks for your help with this bird - it is a much more difficult individual to identify than some of the 'classic' individuals to my mind. Actually, it was the closest bird to me in the group and I still didn't identify it at the time as a Caspian Gull. I'm just glad that I had my video camera with me.

Regards,
Lancey

 

[JANJ]

Yes Lancey they do show anchor shaped marks on the scapulars, a variable character, which you can see if you look around at all the caspian images that´s around. Fact is, they come in different shapes, because of the sexual and individual differences, they can look short-legged, stout-billed, have an obvious gonys angle, and unfamiliar head shapes. but in spite of that, a Caspian is always a Caspian, when learned. so to speak. You have to learn them by also studying other gulls as much as you can, and put up with!

http://www.gull-watching.com/

http://nic-hallam-bird-images.com/Caspian-Gulls

http://applerow.co.uk/Photo_List.Asp?TaxonID=1345&TaxonName=Caspian+Gull

http://www.xs4all.nl/~daarruud/

JanJ

 

[Birdspotter]

Great thread guys, iv'e learned more about Caspian and other Gulls on threads like these than anywhere else.
Will find one of these blighters one day, anyway bedy ba's for me work tommorrow, keep up the great work.

 

[JANJ]

Lancey, just a few more nice Caspians from Sweden, in comparison with Yellow-legged.

Caspian Nov.
http://www.kof.nu/galleri/galleribilder/kaspisk_trut_ol_051127_1.jpg

http://www.kof.nu/galleri/galleribilder/kaspisk_trut_ol_051127_3.jpg

http://www.kof.nu/galleri/galleribilder/kaspisk_ trut_mm_051126_1.jpg

http://www.kof.nu/galleri/galleribilder/kaspisk_trut_mm_051126_2.jpg

http://www.kof.nu/galleri/galleribilder/kaspisk_trut_mm_051126_3.jpg

http://www.kof.nu/galleri/galleribilder/kaspisk_trut_mm_051126_4.jpg

http://www.kof.nu/galleri/galleribilder/kaspisk_trut_ol_051127_2.jpg

Yellow-legged the one with spread wings Dec. the others Nov.

http://www.kof.nu/galleri/galleribilder/medelhavstrut_us_051212_3.jpg

http://www.kof.nu/galleri/galleribilder/medelhavstrut_mm_051123_1.jpg

http://www.kof.nu/galleri/galleribilder/medelhavstrut_mm_051123_2.jpg

http://www.kof.nu/galleri/galleribilder/medelhavstrut_mm_051120_1.jpg

http://www.kof.nu/galleri/galleribilder/medelhavstrut_mm_051120_2.jpg

Oct.

http://www.kof.nu/galleri/galleribilder/medelhavstrut_1K_mr_041027.jpg

JanJ

 

[Lancey]

Caspian Gulls

JanJ,
This has been a very informative thread and I for one am grateful for these links to other Caspian pics.

Strangely enough, on the same day I saw another gull that was rather odd too, and will post photos of that one very soon. I hope I can rely on the gull enthusiasts amongst us to help out?

Regards,
Lancey