"made in ..." same as "assembled in ..." ? (1 Viewer)

[WJC]

Of course I agree that Googling a thing doesn't make it true, but Leupold does assert the following on their website:

1992
GOLDEN RING BINOCULARS

For the first time in more than 20 years, Leupold binoculars are manufactured in the United States​

A Living History of Leupold & Stevens, Inc

You know us, because we’re a lot like you. We work hard. We’re innovators. We hunt and shoot, and we generally get out a lot. Above all, we’re a family. Our story starts here.

www.leupold.com

“Leupold riflescopes are all designed, machined, and assembled in our Beaverton, Oregon manufacturing facility ...”

And I don’t have a grain of a problem with that; I know it is true. I have long been a fan of the company and their efforts to bring more optics to the United States. But not one word of that blurb—from the source of all knowledge, the often ludicrous Internet—mentions binoculars. I just now called Matt at the company: 1 (800) 538-7653

After telling him exactly why I was calling, he opened up with some points of interest.

1) “We don’t currently make binoculars in this facility.” (Those who know the Internet knows more than a customer service guru at the company might want to call Bruce Pettet (the CEO) and try to get Matt fired for spreading information that does not mirror what they have read or been told.)

2) He nebulously mentioned the early 90s.

3) I asked if that could be about the time their rep was telling me about the 2 pocket models they “ASSEMBLED.”

4) “Probably.”

5) He went on to say that the “GOLD RING”— that too many reference—was NOT MADE in that facility and that their binoculars were manufactured ... in JAPAN. And no, Leupold does not have a facility in Japan!

6) He went on the say that for 2 years Leupold has been planning to start to plant to MANUFACTURE binoculars in Beaverton and that the land had already been purchased. I’m excited! But knowing how Asian optics work, I can only be cautiously optimistic.

7) “The most hated man is the one who tells the truth.” — Plato

8) Forty-six of my 52 years in military and civilian optics are represented in the attached.

As an aside, Binocollector states that I forget about Fraser’s “military” optics. Bill has forgotten nothing. This comment makes the THIRD TIME I have plainly stated that I was NOT talking about “military” optics, but “CONSUMER” optics.

Also, knowing what I know about the industry, I refuse to believe the blatantly ludicrous ... that Fraser actually MAKES IS instruments, which I will gladly leave to the peanut gallery of bino-observing bird watchers, amateur astronomers, and others who believe everything they read.

When you don’t know how deep the water is, it is advisable not to be so quick to jump in.

 

[Ted Y.]

The definitions for "made", "make" are elusive. Hence this thread.

Likewise, when a Military grade binocular is sold to the public, can be considered a Consumer binocular?

 

[WJC]

The definitions for "made", "make" are elusive. Hence this thread.

Likewise, when a Military grade binocular is sold to the public, can be considered a Consumer binocular?

Nope. It just becomes a way to make money off the gullible! (see attached) And is just as truthful as “WE MAKE,” “WE MANUFACTURE,” and “OUR COMPANY IS A WORLD LEADER IN ...” (although that company has existed for 5-10 years or so.) It’s kinda like, “IF I’M ELECTED, I WILL ...” and certain cranially challenged and inexperienced segments of the country just gobble it up.

 

[MiddleRiver]

Well yes 😉 , except the iron frame that holds the whole piano instrument together under great tension, which was made in foundries across the Czech border.
Not that it affects the sound, and, Bluthner are straightforward when questions are asked; highly important to me as their customer.

Still, it's akin to me saying I'm made in England, when my skeleton actually came from Norway 😁

Manufactured vs 'made'...??

I agree tho'... in this day and age, profit-driven manufacturing will ultimately be driven by bean-counters and that means that wherever the quality can be maintained, but costs be reduced, it will be so. Which is NOT to doubt that a product made from MIC, MIJ, MI.... can't be high quality.

 

[limonabe]

Bill, I simply copied-and-pasted what's on Leupold's website, which I also linked in my post. Since you took the time to respond to me so pointedly, however:

So Matt the customer service rep told you “We don’t currently make binoculars in this facility.” ? The Leupold website I linked refers to the domestic manufacture of binoculars in 1992, not now.

So Matt "nebulously mentioned the early 90s"? Well, did he happen to mention they used to manufacture binoculars stateside in the early 90's or what?

So you asked Matt, who probably wasn't born yet in 1992, if the 2 pocket models your rep told you about were assembled around that time and he said "Probably"? I've read the BF thread about this same issue from 2014 and I know that the words "assembled" and "manufactured" are sticking points for you, but probably not for Matt, right? So I wonder if you'd said "manufactured" instead of "assembled", would he have given you exactly the same non-committal answer?

But seriously, he's a customer service rep, Bill - I really wouldn't expect the man to know the details of product lines from the early 90's, nor would I hold out his answer "Probably" to mean much. On the other hand did he not tell you, in essence, that they probably made binoculars in Beaverton in the early 1990's? I just don't get where you're coming from but the website is pretty clear, and corroborates what Matt apparently told you:




1992
GOLDEN RING BINOCULARS

For the first time in more than 20 years, Leupold binoculars are manufactured in the United States​

<insert ancient philosopher quote here>

I don't necessarily disagree with you, Bill - I just read your typically combative remarks, then looked at Leupold's website and copied what is there in black-and-white. I think you should consider too that what your rep told you back when you were the "largest dealer of quality binoculars north of Los Angeles" doesn't amount to proof of anything either. Curious, do you recall what year it was that the rep told you that?

I'll tell you what I would like to see, something more than hearsay - is if anyone has a pair of 1992 vintage Gold Rings that say "Made in USA" on them? I think if they were out there, we'd have already seen them.

-Gene

 

[WJC]

Bill, I simply copied-and-pasted what's on Leupold's website, which I also linked in my post. Since you took the time to respond to me so pointedly, however:

So Matt the customer service rep told you “We don’t currently make binoculars in this facility.” ? The website I linked refers to the domestic manufacture of binoculars in 1992, not now.

So Matt "nebulously mentioned the early 90s"? Well, did he happen to mention they used to manufacture binoculars stateside in the early 90's or what?

So you asked Matt, who probably wasn't born yet in 1992, if the 2 pocket models your rep told you about were assembled around that time and he said "Probably"? I've read the BF thread about this same issue from 2014 and I know that the words "assembled" and "manufactured" are sticking points for you, but probably not for Matt, right? So I wonder if you'd said "manufactured" instead of "assembled", would he have given you exactly the same non-committal answer?

But seriously, he's a customer service rep, Bill - I really wouldn't expect the man to know the details of product lines from the early 90's, nor would I hold out his answer "Probably" to mean much. On the other hand did he not tell you, in essence, that they probably made binoculars in Beaverton in the early 1990's? I just don't get where you're coming from but the website is pretty clear, and corroborates what Matt apparently told you:




1992
GOLDEN RING BINOCULARS

For the first time in more than 20 years, Leupold binoculars are manufactured in the United States​

So Matt went on to say "the “GOLD RING” was NOT MADE in that facility and that their binoculars were manufactured ... in JAPAN"? We get it, they're not currently made in Beaverton. The question remains - were they made in Beaverton circa 1992? Well, the website says they were and Matt said they probably were.

<insert ancient philosopher quote here>

I don't necessarily disagree with you, Bill - I just read your typically combative remarks, then looked at Leupold's website and copied what is there in black-and-white. I think you should consider too that what your rep told you back when you were the "largest dealer of quality binoculars north of Los Angeles" doesn't amount to proof of anything either. Curious, do you recall what year it was that the rep told you that?

I'll tell you what I would like to see, something more than hearsay - is if anyone has a pair of 1992 vintage Gold Rings that say "Made in USA" on them? I think if they were out there, we'd have already seen them.

-Gene

Steiner often says Germany. However most of them have not been German in many many years. They were originally imported by pioneer marketing in New Jersey. Most recently they’re coming from Wyoming. Also being imported mainly from China.

I was not trying to be combative. However what I am trying to teach is that advertising does not need to be accurate or meaningful. It only has to be believed!!! And there is a lot of that going around. I do stand firm for what I know to be true.

And I do believe my time in facing the fire use me a little better take on what is really going on.

Most of the people who say, “we make” Or “We manufacture” are lying through their teeth. I just stand firm because I know that others who also know the story are too bloody sheepish to do so. Standing up for the truth, is one of my many Unpopular faults.

 

[Ted Y.]

Steiner often says Germany. However most of them have not been German in many many years. They were originally imported by pioneer marketing in New Jersey. Most recently they’re coming from Wyoming. Also being imported mainly from China.

I was not trying to be combative. However what I am trying to teach is that advertising does not need to be accurate or meaningful. It only has to be believed!!! And there is a lot of that going around. I do stand firm for what I know to be true.

And I do believe my time in facing the fire use me a little better take on what is really going on.

Most of the people who say, “we make” Or “We manufacture” are lying through their teeth. I just stand firm because I know that others who also know the story are too bloody sheepish to do so. Standing up for the truth, is one of my many Unpopular faults.

I am interested, this imports are roof binoculars or/and Porro ones?
Also, is this a reality of the last years (3-5 y) or is something in the past?
I tested a few models and I was impressed (for the price, always for the price).
Example: low CA can be achieved without ED glass.

 

[Ted Y.]

I asked a vendor where is made the Kowa 6.5x32 BD II model and the answer was about the country of origin, Japan.
I know this binocular is labeled "Japan", therefore I assume this is the new practice, correlated with the diversity of suppliers.
Or the new reality.
Or maybe "made in ..." is no more an important aspect for medium/high quality binoculars?

 

[limonabe]

Most of the people who say, “we make” Or “We manufacture” are lying through their teeth.

If you really knew of a respectable company that does this, then you might make some money by exposing them. I don't think you do.

You're fond of letting everyone know how much experience you have in the field of optics, so I'll share with you some of my experience in the field of law, which is basically that Leupold's legal department isn't going to go in for that kind of shenanigan. Leupold doesn't just tell Matt to write all the website copy and then let it roll without legal review.

That's why I'm reasonably certain the website wouldn't say "manufactured in the United States" when it could just as easily say "assembled", "made", "designed", or any other word that doesn't expose the company to a lawsuit unless it means just that- "manufactured in the United States".

I'll leave it to others to argue the precise legal definition of the word "manufacture", but I find it hard to believe it's a blatant lie.

 

[WJC]

Bill, I simply copied-and-pasted what's on Leupold's website, which I also linked in my post. Since you took the time to respond to me so pointedly, however:

So Matt the customer service rep told you “We don’t currently make binoculars in this facility.” ? The website I linked refers to the domestic manufacture of binoculars in 1992, not now.

So Matt "nebulously mentioned the early 90s"? Well, did he happen to mention they used to manufacture binoculars stateside in the early 90's or what?

So you asked Matt, who probably wasn't born yet in 1992, if the 2 pocket models your rep told you about were assembled around that time and he said "Probably"? I've read the BF thread about this same issue from 2014 and I know that the words "assembled" and "manufactured" are sticking points for you, but probably not for Matt, right? So I wonder if you'd said "manufactured" instead of "assembled", would he have given you exactly the same non-committal answer?

But seriously, he's a customer service rep, Bill - I really wouldn't expect the man to know the details of product lines from the early 90's, nor would I hold out his answer "Probably" to mean much. On the other hand did he not tell you, in essence, that they probably made binoculars in Beaverton in the early 1990's? I just don't get where you're coming from but the website is pretty clear, and corroborates what Matt apparently told you:




1992
GOLDEN RING BINOCULARS

For the first time in more than 20 years, Leupold binoculars are manufactured in the United States​

So Matt went on to say "the “GOLD RING” was NOT MADE in that facility and that their binoculars were manufactured ... in JAPAN"? We get it, they're not currently made in Beaverton. The question remains - were they made in Beaverton circa 1992? Well, the website says they were and Matt said they probably were.

<insert ancient philosopher quote here>

I don't necessarily disagree with you, Bill - I just read your typically combative remarks, then looked at Leupold's website and copied what is there in black-and-white. I think you should consider too that what your rep told you back when you were the "largest dealer of quality binoculars north of Los Angeles" doesn't amount to proof of anything either. Curious, do you recall what year it was that the rep told you that?

I'll tell you what I would like to see, something more than hearsay - is if anyone has a pair of 1992 vintage Gold Rings that say "Made in USA" on them? I think if they were out there, we'd have already seen them.

-Gene

Steiner often says Germany. However most of them have not been German in many many years. They were originally imported by pioneer marketing in New Jersey. Most recently they’re coming from Wyoming. Also being imported mainly from China.

I was not trying to be combative. However what I am trying to teach is that advertising does not need to be accurate or meaningful. It only has to be believed!!! And there is a lot of that going around. I do stand firm for what I know to be true.

And I do believe my time in facing the fire use me a little better take on what is really going on.

Most of the people who say, “we make” Or “We manufacture” are lying through their teeth. I just stand firm because I know that others who also know the story are too bloody sheepish to do so. Standing up for the truth, is one of my many Unpopular faults

 

[WJC]

If you really knew of a respectable company that does this, then you might make some money by exposing them.

You're fond of letting everyone know how much experience you have in the field of optics, so I'll share with you some of my experience in the field of law, which is basically that Leupold's legal department isn't going to go in for that kind of shenanigan. Leupold doesn't just tell Matt to write all the website copy and then let it roll without legal review.

That's why I'm reasonably certain the website wouldn't say "manufactured in the United States" when it could just as easily say "assembled", "made", "designed", or any other word that doesn't expose the company to a lawsuit unless it means just that- "manufactured in the United States".

I'll leave it to others to argue the precise legal definition of the word "manufacture", but I find it hard to believe it's a blatant lie.

“If you really knew of a respectable company that does this, then you might make some money by exposing them.” I don't think you do.

Thank you for your kind consideration. You want to know what companies misstate what they are making. PICK ONE THAT MAKES SUCH A CLAIM ... ANY ONE! I gave you Matt’s Name and number at Leupold. Thus, I must assume your fingers are broken.

The explanation for this puffery was plainly documented in the intro to my first bino book:

“Possibly the biggest difference between this and other books on the subject will be in using the approach that worked best in talking with customers at Captain’s and on Internet forums I frequent. That’s not to dance around important issues, because “the customer is always right,” but to un-sheepishly replace misleading ideas with salient material and touch on things enthusiasts and collectors might find interesting.

“Although this “cut to the chase and give it to ‘em straight” approach has been very successful in a professional, face-to-face setting, it hasn’t always been appreciated when used on the net. There, I’ve been met with severe, sometimes hurtful, criticism from those who’ve failed to recognize the reason for my self-assured, bulldog approach to teaching and not sharing information and advice in a more politically correct, unsure of myself, milquetoast fashion so as to be acceptable to every possible ideology, language, and level of understanding on the planet. But with today’s resources in an unending struggle for our attention, I find it counterproductive to get mired down in uncertainties that can leave a reader more than a little confused.”

Learning early on what I was up against in trying to help, I use those credentials that frustrate you like a rattlesnake uses his rattles. They tell those who can think rationally that they had better have their facts handy before trying to step on me.

“The higher we soar, the smaller we appear to those who can’t fly.” — Fredrich Nietzsche

Even so, I understand your frustration. I have dealt with it time after time and it is why those with advanced degrees in optics rarely attend these romper room forums. However, I have many friends here who enjoy being told the truth and who I care a great for a great deal.

“When you want to help people, you tell them the truth. If you want to help yourself, you tell them what they want to hear.” — Dr. Thomas Sowell on NBC TV

I tell people what they claim they want to know, even when it goes against what they THINK they know.

You have plenty of my direct quotes and have openly called me a “blatant Liar.” Sadly I am willing to offer you a chance to continue making a fool of yourself.

Attached, you will find what laymen and experts think of my experience, work, and my refusal to bend the truth for any reason. The photo of the 7x50 labeled as a 120x120 is an example of one of the lies I took to task.

You seem exuberantly confident to attack. So let’s compare lives in optics. Being from the home of the Technology Triangle, I am prepared to be impressed.

Bill Cook

52 years in Military Civilian optics, precision and ophthalmic
4 books on optics published
10 years editor and publisher an international magazine
Designer of the all brass Baywatch (attached) which sold almost a million before the economy collapsed in 2008 and the Cook-Houghton Telescope (ATMJ) packaged with Zemax lens design software.
Dozens of accolades from optical professionals and binocular observers

Your turn; I’m prepared to be impressed.

Finally, you should know two things. First, longtime members of this forum are prepared for this puffery which, they have seen more than once. By the way, you instigated that and they just roll their eyes and occasionally puke a little. And two,

That I care just as much for you—regardless of what you think of me—as I do any longtime member of this forum and I hope you have a great day, tomorrow ... whether you need it or not!

 

[dorubird]

Everyone (each of us) consumes more and more, and due to this vicious circle, the place of objects or raw materials from which the product is made, it becomes impossible to identify it accurately, because there are common industries on Earth.
We have long time since we have lost our simplicity and transparency in this marketing jungle and in own consumerism tyranny! We becoming more and more intemperate. We are like in a painting by Hieronymus Bosch where the grotesque has entered in everyday life! We no longer have "landmarks" in our lives apart from the tyranny of politics ... but the only one that does not fall is pure love (Agape)...No matter where the binoculars are made, we must not give them more importance than they are. But I admit that it is difficult for me and I was "bitten" by this disease of good binoculars

one pair of binoculars would be enough ...

 

[Thotmosis]

After reading all this I need another cup of coffee

 

[exup]

No matter where the binoculars are made, we must not give them more importance than they are.

This is an interesting thread....... with Bill and others getting excited over the semantics of where products are "created".
I have intentionally not used manufactured, assembled, built, forged, machined, cast, moulded, spun, 3D printed, laser etched, powder compressed, poured, vapour deposition, .........

Is there a perception that one country makes better products than another.....in today's global multinational manufacturing world?

When I was a boy ....... This might have been the case, but after being in the engineering world for many decades, the harsh reality is that most product components are sourced from many places around the world and assembled somewhere else. This often makes sense, as process expertise is built in specific areas, by specific manufacturers. Going forward in today's volatile and hostile world, this could quickly reverse.

I see no issue with this specialist approach ...... except when military technology needs to be controlled, when export regulations come into play.

For consumer products like binoculars, I would expect that few are wholly "created" in high cost economics. Some high cost brands might have some operations undertaken in Germany, US, Japan, ......etc. but that does not necessarily ensure any higher quality. It does allow marketing to those buyers that believe one country is more proficient than another. Germany and Japan have this perception today among optics enthusiast's by the looks of it. This could well be more related to the market segment that they have targeted e.g. £3000 bins have a cost breakdown with the capability to spend more on product components and assembly and still make a cash cow profit, compared to £400 bins.

The design and specifications for a product, together with a capable manufacturing facility are what matters. There are very capable manufacturing facilities in many low cost economies today. E.g. a multi-axis CNC machining centre, with spec'd aluminium billets can be placed in any country on earth.......each part is reproducible to high tolerances. Gone are the days of humans with high skills, manually machining each component.

The old story of a UK/EU/US car manufacturer asking a Japanise producer to manufacture components to a defect tolerance rate......... and the Japanese manufacturer had to hand make the defective items outside the normal production run and bag them up specifically ..... applies today in many cases worldwide.

So, to conclude....... Maybe some optics brands have their own in house processes, such as lens polishing and coating facilities. Maybe they also have their own proprietary lens coatings, but for the vast majority of optics, it would be no surprise if they come from a few 'hidden' manufacturers worldwide.

 

[Binocollector]

@WJC
And in more than one discussion about this topic before -- people have been pointing out to you that Fraser optics are not just military. Anybody can buy them so they are by definition "consumer products". Doesn't matter how many people actually buy them or how expensive they are.

 

[Gijs van Ginkel]

Some years ago the regular meeting of the Binocular Histry Society was organised in Portland, very close to Leupold. Jan van Daalen and myself went to the meeting and we wanted to visit Leupold to see their binocular production facility. The message we received form Leupold was, that the company did not make any binoculars, so there was nothing to see.
Gijs van Ginkel

 

[Binocollector]

As an aside, Binocollector states that I forget about Fraser’s “military” optics. Bill has forgotten nothing. This comment makes the THIRD TIME I have plainly stated that I was NOT talking about “military” optics, but “CONSUMER” optics.

Also, knowing what I know about the industry, I refuse to believe the blatantly ludicrous ... that Fraser actually MAKES IS instruments, which I will gladly leave to the peanut gallery of bino-observing bird watchers, amateur astronomers, and others who believe everything they read.

Ah, sure -- and of course if "you believe" something then it is true, but the "peanut gallery" believes everything they read. LMAO
You are so full of yourself it is hard to even be believed if you wouldn't prove it in every single of your posts.
In order to remove 95 percent of the nonsense written in this forum, one would only have to put you and denco on ignore. Problem solved.
That will be my last post on the matter. Opposed to others, my time is too precious to argue with people who have their set of ideas that they don't deviate from, no matter what and no matter how many times people prove them wrong.
"Experts" who write expert stuff like "FoV is calculated by dividing aperture through magnification".

Oh, and one last thing about Fraser for the "experts" who don't believe they make the stabilizing system -- the Fraser binos are quite different from a Canon of Fujinon. They are stabilized using gyros which is a far simpler (and probably more robust -- hence the "milspec" stuff) method of image stabilization. I am pretty certain that American companies are completely capable of making something like this. Why wouldn't they? But I am certain we will hear no more "proof" for the allegations than a simple, "I believe it, therefore it is true, just look at the 250+ years I worked in bino repairs." Oh, and maybe a little Nietzsche sprinkled in.

 

[limonabe]

Bill, just put your resumé in your signature line and save yourself the typing next time. I won't comment on this thread again other than to say -

The explanation for this puffery was plainly documented in the intro to my first bino book

1) If you can't prove what you assert about everyone lying through their teeth about where their products are made, better not to say it so loudly and proudly. Show us some proof of that in your next comment and I'll eat my hat.

2) I've read your book, and frankly it would be made much better if you kept it technical and left out all this pathological aggro posturing.

3) If I'm reading you correctly, you have now several times called both your assertion about companies lying through their collective teeth as well as the list of your own acheivements "puffery". You do know that puffery means "exaggerated or false praise", don't you? It's a word commonly used in advertising when people want to make wild, unverifiable claims without backing them up, so I do think you're using the word correctly.

 

[exup]

Does the US not have similar regulations to these?:

Access2Markets Quick guide to working with rules of origin

Rules of origin quick guide

trade.ec.europa.eu

These attempt to cut through all the component and assembly arguments, so that the true nature of the sourcing is defined.

 

[Ted Y.]

Here is my understanding:

"Made in ..." is an old concept from the previous century.
It is not aligned with today economic realities. It is obsolete.
A binocular can be designed by a company in Germany, assembled in Japan with sub-assemblies from different sources (possibly different countries, Japan included). Or assembled in Portugal, with lenses from Germany or Portugal (who knows?).

Probably "QC and AQ by <put here the firm>" is much more relevant than "Made in ...".