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ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

New ATC/ STC 17-40x56 Telescope (3 Viewers)

There are IMO a few reasons why so few people use a CTC or comparable drwatube scopes (doesn't Meopta still make one?):
  • It's a straight scope, and straight scopes are (usually, not always) less convenient than angled scopes: You need a larger tripod and so on.
  • A drawtube scope is less water resistant than other scopes. I wouldn't want to useone in really wet weather, no matter what the manufacturers say. (BTW, the Optolyth 30x75 of old that looked exactly like the CTC leaked like a sieve ...)
Hermann
I can think of a few more reasons as well...

The focusing by twisting the eye piece being another to add to the list, not ideal for Digi scoping I'd imagine.

I've not handled the ctc with any special care but as a quality item it's still in good nick, the stay on case helps, and the fact it also acts as the lens caps saves time - there are none supplied.

Waterproofing wise I do use it in the rain and round the coasts when I manage to get to one. It takes a minute to wipe the water off the tube before retracting it as it suggests in the manual. I've never had any issue with water/fungus/misting etc so haven't had the lack of submersible ability affect my birding as such and haven't had to pump it to remove moisture from the tube. Maybe I've been lucky.

Will
 
I always thought of these compact spotters as more of a second scope to complement a full sized scope. I guess it depends on your birding style. A quality full sized scope on a solid tripod is a very useful tool for a lot of birding, a 56mm can't really replace it.
Very true. I suppose its the complete optic system design without needing seperate eye pieces or in some scopes case objective modules - or the (apparent) lack of necessity for a tripod that sets it apart and may appeal to new scope users.

I tend to recommend a used 70/80mm scope with a zoom eye piece and a tripod for new scope users- just so they get the full wow experience and can refine from there.

Will
 
Does anybody know if the ATC will fit in the field bag XL? FBP-XL field bag pro - Swarovski Optik

Or does anybody know of a bag that can protect the little scope? I might consider a towel or so, but I am just wondering. Maybe Swarovski will show up with a bag or cover especially designed for the ATC one day?
Actually, it would be great to know the actual dimensions end-to-end (on diagonal). I'm test-driving Kowa 553 and it's a tiny bit too long to fit my camera daypack. If the Swaro was an inch shorter, it might tempt me for that reason alone :p
 
As previously mentioned, I bought an STC to replace my CTC 30x75 drawtube.

To reiterate context, I'm an infrequent scope user but when I do take one out then portability, together with a complete lack of clutter, is important to me. I just can't be bothered with big / heavy rigs.

For a few years I'd been very happy with the CTC, it proved extremely practical in the field and rarely did I find myself in a position where I needed to deploy it but couldn't find some-or-other rest, even if that rest turned out to be me myself lying back in some form of inelegant-crossed-legs fashion.

Though I never suffered any moisture ingress or other contamination issues with the CTC, I was attracted to the STC because of the intrinsically increased robustness and reliability. It also appealed because it's incredibly compact and very unobtrusive when shouldered on its strap.

So, after about a week of using the STC in a few different habitats and circumstances; including use from car, pushbike, camper, bird hides and just generally bumbling around: I'm a little disappointed to report that this is probably not the best purchase I've ever made.

For a start, the scope is proving more problematic to place on ad-hoc rests than my CTC was. I've discovered the diminutive form works against it somewhat, as it offers less surface area to perch upon and fewer stabilising 'triangulation' opportunities.

There's a certain paradox, too, in the fact that I found using the scope without the (intuitively useful) half-shell actually often makes the combined operation of ad-hoc rest placement and focussing easier. In a nutshell, at any given time the half-shell rarely seems to be where I need it to be, and indeed mostly where I'd prefer it wasn't. Simplistically, with the STC, spontaneous field use is generally altogether more 'fumbly' and just not as untroubled as it was with the CTC.

If using without any rests, straightforward hand-holding at ~17x is plausible for a quick ID, but again, I find hand-holding and simultaneously focussing quicker and easier without the half-shell in place.

Portability, at least, is excellent - but I'd have preferred to have seen a third tethering point dedicated to the eyepiece cover. Currently, when the strap is attached, the eyepiece cover needs to be piggy-backed to one of the (two) shoulder strap tethering points, or attached to the shoulder strap itself. Either way leads to some tangling and frustration.

Perhaps because of the impromptu rests I utilise, and the jaunty viewing angles these sometimes inevitably mean, I'm also finding eye placement more troublesome than with the CTC. I find myself screwing the eyecup in and out quite a bit to compensate for imperfect viewing angles: something I'd rather not have to faff about doing whilst trying to quickly acquire a subject. It's possible that anatomy plays a role here but I just don't find it anywhere near as easy to quickly and reliably achieve correct eye placement as I did with the CTC. Of course, if settled in a hide or similar that affords a consistent resting opportunity, this particular frustration isn't such a factor.

Optically, well, I'm surprised and disappointed to report that I'm not massively impressed. Performance is, well… OK, but I'm not sure the optical compromises I'm perceiving are worth the undoubted advantages in robustness, storage and portability.

In low light conditions in particular, especially if also set at a higher magnification, I find that image quality suffers significantly to the point where if trying to observe even quite distant subjects, I can often make out the same level of detail using my NL 12x42 courtesy of better resolution, contrast and brightness.

Even in good light, I'm still not massively impressed with image quality at higher magnifications, with resolution in particular being quite disappointing. That said, in decent light, image quality using anything up to about 25-30x is pretty good.

Regarding other optical qualities: in very testing circumstances (dark twigs against open sky) I can see some colour fringing, though this is only visible towards the very edges and is not troublesome (to me) in 'normal' use. In less testing circumstances, 'sharpness' right to the edges is very good with no obviously distracting field curvature or other 'edge' aberrations.

I accept that it would be wholly unrealistic to imagine the ATC/STC would perform like its high-end, large-objective cousins, but even with limited expectations it's not really wowed me.

In summary, it certainly isn't a bad piece of kit but I can't help thinking that a slightly increased objective lens diameter and a fixed magnification eyepiece of ~25x would have resulted in an optically superior and improved all-round product.

I acknowledge using this scope on a good, stable tripod would perhaps result in a different impression but using it in the way I prefer to use scopes, and the way the manufacturer suggests is entirely appropriate, I'm afraid my feelings are currently quite lukewarm.

It does the job but isn't bringing me much in the way of joy.
 
In summary, it certainly isn't a bad piece of kit but I can't help thinking that a slightly increased objective lens diameter and a fixed magnification eyepiece of ~25x would have resulted in an optically superior and improved all-round product.
An Opticron MM4 60 with the 23x fixed eyepiece weighs about the same as the ATC. I will compare the two in due course.
 
I acknowledge using this scope on a good, stable tripod would perhaps result in a different impression but using it in the way I prefer to use scopes, and the way the manufacturer suggests is entirely appropriate, I'm afraid my feelings are currently quite lukewarm.

It does the job but isn't bringing me much in the way of joy.

I use an mm4 50ed on a pistol grip for those days I might need a scope but need ultimate portability. It works wonders, and at 17x all the way to 24x, doesnt ever need a tripod, and after that I'll be sat down and the monopod comes into play.

Just food for thought
 
I have had some success using a shoulder-pod with my (very) old Nikon ED50 and more recently with my MM4 60mm. The only drawback being the shoulder pod is getting a bit decrepit.
I'll dig it out of the loft and post a photograph
 
I have had some success using a shoulder-pod with my (very) old Nikon ED50 and more recently with my MM4 60mm. The only drawback being the shoulder pod is getting a bit decrepit.
I'll dig it out of the loft and post a photograph
8A7D61CC-0156-4124-8E3E-5A52CC3CCBC3.jpeg
193C0CE3-2BA1-496D-9AC2-48929E5128FC.jpeg914CBE89-DED6-4669-9BB5-521514D5AE1D.jpeg
.
I don’t think they are still available but would love to be proved wrong
 
Thank you for writing that up, I'd wanted to read a comparison of those 2 scopes as a current ctc owner.

I suppose the laws of physics in respect of the exit pupil come into play with eye positioning - at 30x and above especially, your old ctc would be at 2.5mm at 30x the stc down at 1.8mm - for me less than 2.5mm for terrestrial use especially hand held or on an impromptu rest becomes problematic.

It's not the best feeling to pay more for an optical downgrade but I hope the portability and waterproofing will become more worthwhile to you over time.

Will

As previously mentioned, I bought an STC to replace my CTC 30x75 drawtube.

To reiterate context, I'm an infrequent scope user but when I do take one out then portability, together with a complete lack of clutter, is important to me. I just can't be bothered with big / heavy rigs.

For a few years I'd been very happy with the CTC, it proved extremely practical in the field and rarely did I find myself in a position where I needed to deploy it but couldn't find some-or-other rest, even if that rest turned out to be me myself lying back in some form of inelegant-crossed-legs fashion.

Though I never suffered any moisture ingress or other contamination issues with the CTC, I was attracted to the STC because of the intrinsically increased robustness and reliability. It also appealed because it's incredibly compact and very unobtrusive when shouldered on its strap.

So, after about a week of using the STC in a few different habitats and circumstances; including use from car, pushbike, camper, bird hides and just generally bumbling around: I'm a little disappointed to report that this is probably not the best purchase I've ever made.

For a start, the scope is proving more problematic to place on ad-hoc rests than my CTC was. I've discovered the diminutive form works against it somewhat, as it offers less surface area to perch upon and fewer stabilising 'triangulation' opportunities.

There's a certain paradox, too, in the fact that I found using the scope without the (intuitively useful) half-shell actually often makes the combined operation of ad-hoc rest placement and focussing easier. In a nutshell, at any given time the half-shell rarely seems to be where I need it to be, and indeed mostly where I'd prefer it wasn't. Simplistically, with the STC, spontaneous field use is generally altogether more 'fumbly' and just not as untroubled as it was with the CTC.

If using without any rests, straightforward hand-holding at ~17x is plausible for a quick ID, but again, I find hand-holding and simultaneously focussing quicker and easier without the half-shell in place.

Portability, at least, is excellent - but I'd have preferred to have seen a third tethering point dedicated to the eyepiece cover. Currently, when the strap is attached, the eyepiece cover needs to be piggy-backed to one of the (two) shoulder strap tethering points, or attached to the shoulder strap itself. Either way leads to some tangling and frustration.

Perhaps because of the impromptu rests I utilise, and the jaunty viewing angles these sometimes inevitably mean, I'm also finding eye placement more troublesome than with the CTC. I find myself screwing the eyecup in and out quite a bit to compensate for imperfect viewing angles: something I'd rather not have to faff about doing whilst trying to quickly acquire a subject. It's possible that anatomy plays a role here but I just don't find it anywhere near as easy to quickly and reliably achieve correct eye placement as I did with the CTC. Of course, if settled in a hide or similar that affords a consistent resting opportunity, this particular frustration isn't such a factor.

Optically, well, I'm surprised and disappointed to report that I'm not massively impressed. Performance is, well… OK, but I'm not sure the optical compromises I'm perceiving are worth the undoubted advantages in robustness, storage and portability.

In low light conditions in particular, especially if also set at a higher magnification, I find that image quality suffers significantly to the point where if trying to observe even quite distant subjects, I can often make out the same level of detail using my NL 12x42 courtesy of better resolution, contrast and brightness.

Even in good light, I'm still not massively impressed with image quality at higher magnifications, with resolution in particular being quite disappointing. That said, in decent light, image quality using anything up to about 25-30x is pretty good.

Regarding other optical qualities: in very testing circumstances (dark twigs against open sky) I can see some colour fringing, though this is only visible towards the very edges and is not troublesome (to me) in 'normal' use. In less testing circumstances, 'sharpness' right to the edges is very good with no obviously distracting field curvature or other 'edge' aberrations.

I accept that it would be wholly unrealistic to imagine the ATC/STC would perform like its high-end, large-objective cousins, but even with limited expectations it's not really wowed me.

In summary, it certainly isn't a bad piece of kit but I can't help thinking that a slightly increased objective lens diameter and a fixed magnification eyepiece of ~25x would have resulted in an optically superior and improved all-round product.

I acknowledge using this scope on a good, stable tripod would perhaps result in a different impression but using it in the way I prefer to use scopes, and the way the manufacturer suggests is entirely appropriate, I'm afraid my feelings are currently quite lukewarm.

It does the job but isn't bringing me much in the way of joy.
 
... I suppose the laws of physics in respect of the exit pupil come into play with eye positioning - at 30x and above especially, your old ctc would be at 2.5mm at 30x the stc down at 1.8mm - for me less than 2.5mm for terrestrial use especially hand held or on an impromptu rest becomes problematic.

It's not the best feeling to pay more for an optical downgrade but I hope the portability and waterproofing will become more worthwhile to you over time.

Will

Even at lower magnifications (and so) with the EP at >2.5mm I still don't find eye-placement as simple. My sense is that the sheer size of the eyecup on the STC conspires to decrease the ease of easily-repeatable eye placement. The small rubber cup on the CTC - for me anyway - facilitated consistent placement and once the cup was in its familiar place it was easy to make minute adjustments whilst almost 'gripping' the rubber with the skin within my eye socket. Being able to do this no doubt assisted with overall control. Placing my eye up to the STC is more like trying to find a consistent spot on the top of a lidless jam jar.

I don't wish to seem too negative because the scope does have many merits, and, in spite of being underwhelmed, I do applaud the manufacturer's efforts to market a scope with specific features that divorce it from the need to be encumbered with any kind of formal stabilising device.

I hope other manufacturers will run with the concept and, if they do, at some point a true gem may appear.

It needs to be a fixed 24x60, please.
 
For a few years I'd been very happy with the CTC, it proved extremely practical in the field and rarely did I find myself in a position where I needed to deploy it but couldn't find some-or-other rest, even if that rest turned out to be me myself lying back in some form of inelegant-crossed-legs fashion.
Which means you basically used the CTC like scopes were used in the past - find some sort of rest or lie down on your back to rest the scope on your legs. This works surprisingly well, but only with a scope of sufficient length. With short scopes this does not work at all. With short scopes you definitely need some support, namely a monopod or a tripod. You may get away without a monopod or tripod in some special habitats, for instance in the Scandinavian fjells and in some parts of the Alps where there are plenty of rocks around you can use to support the scope.
So, after about a week of using the STC in a few different habitats and circumstances; including use from car, pushbike, camper, bird hides and just generally bumbling around: I'm a little disappointed to report that this is probably not the best purchase I've ever made.

For a start, the scope is proving more problematic to place on ad-hoc rests than my CTC was. I've discovered the diminutive form works against it somewhat, as it offers less surface area to perch upon and fewer stabilising 'triangulation' opportunities.
I'm not surprised. Not at all.
There's a certain paradox, too, in the fact that I found using the scope without the (intuitively useful) half-shell actually often makes the combined operation of ad-hoc rest placement and focussing easier. In a nutshell, at any given time the half-shell rarely seems to be where I need it to be, and indeed mostly where I'd prefer it wasn't. Simplistically, with the STC, spontaneous field use is generally altogether more 'fumbly' and just not as untroubled as it was with the CTC.

If using without any rests, straightforward hand-holding at ~17x is plausible for a quick ID, but again, I find hand-holding and simultaneously focussing quicker and easier without the half-shell in place.
I reserve my judgement on the half-shell until I had more chances to try it out in the field. However, my first impression was that it's just a gimmick. Your experiences support this impression. The half-shell seems to be a solution to a problem that doesn't exist.
Perhaps because of the impromptu rests I utilise, and the jaunty viewing angles these sometimes inevitably mean, I'm also finding eye placement more troublesome than with the CTC. I find myself screwing the eyecup in and out quite a bit to compensate for imperfect viewing angles: something I'd rather not have to faff about doing whilst trying to quickly acquire a subject. It's possible that anatomy plays a role here but I just don't find it anywhere near as easy to quickly and reliably achieve correct eye placement as I did with the CTC. Of course, if settled in a hide or similar that affords a consistent resting opportunity, this particular frustration isn't such a factor.
I think the problems you're having with the STC are the result of (a) it's much smaller exit pupil compared to your CTC, and (b) the instability of the (short) scope when resting it on some support. Longer scopes invariably work much better for that kind of usage. Eye placement is more critical with a small exit pupil anyway, and it's more difficult to achieve without a monopod or, ideally, a decent tripod.

And I agree, in a hide and so on you'd find the correct eye placement much more easily.
Optically, well, I'm surprised and disappointed to report that I'm not massively impressed. Performance is, well… OK, but I'm not sure the optical compromises I'm perceiving are worth the undoubted advantages in robustness, storage and portability.

In low light conditions in particular, especially if also set at a higher magnification, I find that image quality suffers significantly to the point where if trying to observe even quite distant subjects, I can often make out the same level of detail using my NL 12x42 courtesy of better resolution, contrast and brightness.
Well, you're switching from a scope with a 75mm objective lens to one with a 56mm objective lens. That does make a difference. Bigger is better, at least with scopes. Using a scope (or, indeed, any optic) with a smaller exit pupil takes some getting used to.

I'd try putting both scopes on tripods and see how big the difference really is.
Regarding other optical qualities: in very testing circumstances (dark twigs against open sky) I can see some colour fringing, though this is only visible towards the very edges and is not troublesome (to me) in 'normal' use. In less testing circumstances, 'sharpness' right to the edges is very good with no obviously distracting field curvature or other 'edge' aberrations.
Colour fringing at the edges wouldn't bother me at all. Not with a zoom eyepiece with such a large field of view.
I accept that it would be wholly unrealistic to imagine the ATC/STC would perform like its high-end, large-objective cousins, but even with limited expectations it's not really wowed me.
I think Swarovski made a bad mistake in their advertising. Claiming you can use this short scope without a tripod or at least a monopod is laughable at best and disingenious at worst.
I acknowledge using this scope on a good, stable tripod would perhaps result in a different impression but using it in the way I prefer to use scopes, and the way the manufacturer suggests is entirely appropriate, I'm afraid my feelings are currently quite lukewarm.
I wrote in an earlier post in this thread (#33):

"The marketing is pure BS, simple as that. You can't handhold a short 17-40x scope and expect to see a lot of detail. Even a 15x binocular - which is far easier to use handheld - is a challenge. The efficiency of a 15x binocular is well unter 60%, what do you expect it to be for a scope that's far more difficult to hold steady?"

I stand by that statement.

Hermann
 
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My sense is that the sheer size of the eyecup on the STC conspires to decrease the ease of easily-repeatable eye placement. The small rubber cup on the CTC - for me anyway - facilitated consistent placement and once the cup was in its familiar place it was easy to make minute adjustments whilst almost 'gripping' the rubber with the skin within my eye socket. Being able to do this no doubt assisted with overall control. Placing my eye up to the STC is more like trying to find a consistent spot on the top of a lidless jam jar.
Interesting point. I personally prefer the rubber eyecups of old (like those of the Zeiss Dialyts) to the modern eyecups anytime. Supply each binocular or scope with three sets of rubber eyecups: Short for use with glasses, medium and long. Easy peasy.
I don't wish to seem too negative because the scope does have many merits, and, in spite of being underwhelmed, I do applaud the manufacturer's efforts to market a scope with specific features that divorce it from the need to be encumbered with any kind of formal stabilising device.
But it doesn't work without a stabilising device, i.e. a monopod or a tripod. To work without a "formal stabilising device" it would need (gasp!) a stabiliser ... :cool:
I hope other manufacturers will run with the concept and, if they do, at some point a true gem may appear.
Maybe. If they don't make the mistakes Swarovski made.
It needs to be a fixed 24x60, please.
Or a 25x50 to keep the weight down. With interchangeable eyepieces, with a 40x as a second eyepiece.

BTW, the Zeiss 20x60S Mono (long discontinued) works far better as handheld scope than the Swarovski.

Hermann
 
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Actually, it would be great to know the actual dimensions end-to-end (on diagonal). I'm test-driving Kowa 553 and it's a tiny bit too long to fit my camera daypack. If the Swaro was an inch shorter, it might tempt me for that reason alone :p
It is about 28cm long (diagonal). You may convert it to inches yourself. :)
 
The simplest solution is to get a bigger daypack. I normally buy my bags to fit my gear, not my gear to fit my bags.

Hermann
Perhaps you were never a climber or traveled at high altitude or in wilderness areas for extended periods of time, lol.

I actually have the next size up pack. But wherever possible - moreso as I age - I save weight and prefer to travel light and fast. Also, whether the bag fits under airline seat, or meets carry-on req, etc. all matter to me ;-)

That does not necessarily imply I'm willing to make IQ compromises casually - it's just one data point in selecting my gear. So yes, given two equivalent quality, ergo, etc. optics, if one is a better fit for my travel/carry needs, that's the one I'll select.

I doubt I'll jump on the Swaro tho it is annoying that I need to use my larger camera/daypack with the Kowa. But yes, tempting to try one.
 

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