new petition re driven grouse shooting (9 Viewers)

[Adam W]

One of these minority groups isn't breaking the law. If driven grouse shooting gets banned, then the estates can only blame themselves - I can accept that there are decent law-abiiding folk involved in the grouse shooting and I can accept that conservation positives arise if the industry is conducted according to the law, but the persecution of raptors is not an isolated or occasional action, it is endemic. The blatant criminality that is running alongside the industry simply invites further actions to halt it. Nothing else has worked, the loss of raptors is continuing, so further approaches need to be taken.

Whether the vast majority of the population care or not is irrelevant - I would suggest most laws in the UK affect relatively small minorities of the population. Not attempting to necessarily say there are similarities in the level of severity, but laws on female genital mutilation, closures of tax loopholes, etc, etc, have come into force in the UK regardless of the vast majority of the population probably not knowing or caring anything about the issues.

Yeah okay Jos you've got me there I can't argue with that. However that still doesn't address what I think is perhaps the most important point which is the apparent lack of support within the specific group which we know are affected by these issues and we know are the most likely to care.
You are right to say that lack of general public support is irrelevant as we can simply explain that by the fact most people just don't know don't care because it doesn't affect them but we can't say that when talking specifically about the people we know are aware and do or at least should be most likely of all to care.
A number of explanations have been put forward to explain lack of support from within the birding and anti bloodsports world all of them quite valid but even if we are really generous and say that accounts for half of the group that still leaves us with the other million or so people so why have only 11.5% signed this petition and I'm guessing far fewer still actually got off their backside and attended a Hen Harrier day?

 

[Boom]

Well that's the problem isn't it? I never claimed to have the answer in fact I think I already said that I don't think there'll ever really be a perfect answer. I just don't personally believe that a ban is the answer either.

So why not try a ban? If you have no alternative? That is a major problem for the argument against a ban isn't it?

 

[John Cantelo]

... the most important point which is the apparent lack of support within the specific group which we know are affected by these issues and we know are the most likely to care.....
I'm guessing far fewer still actually got off their backside and attended a Hen Harrier day?

Given how few petitions actually reach the 100,000 level at all, I think it is unwise to draw the conclusion that the numbers reflect a lack of support. Certainly, if you go through all of the many petitions you'll find a good number which polls (and other sources) suggest had very significant support but didn't manage to top 50,000 let alone double that. The comment regarding people "getting off their backside and attend a Hen Harrier" I find mildly offensive as it betrays a lack of understanding that many people, like me, would like to have attended but could not do so due to circumstances beyond their control.

 

[Nutcracker]

Ban Driven Grouse Shooting petition now at #33 out of over 20,000 petitions. That's hardly a lack of support!

 

[Nutcracker]

One estate was served with legal action over there misuse of subsidies - overburning etc. but a quick chat with Benyon (enviroment minister and grouse moor owner) and the legal case (despite being watertight) went away with both sides agreeing that the moor could carry on as it pleased (and the govt picking up the expenses tab).

I think that the RSPB has taken the case to which I assume you refer to the EU for adjudication. It'll be interesting to see what transpires.

The brexit mob will make sure it is thrown out as invalid now in Britain.

 

[Jos Stratford]

The brexit mob will make sure it is thrown out as invalid now in Britain.

You are becoming rather boring slinging in your 'Brexit mob' comments into as many threads as you can.

Aside the above point, if the subsidies were EU subsidies, then the EU has full right to consider the case. And your so-called 'Brexit mob' could do nothing to halt that. If they were UK government subsidies, then without knowing any details of the case, I am not sure why the EU would be adjudicating, but if it is due to violation of EU laws, then it is not invalid now for the obvious reason that Britain is still a member of the EU until the day it leaves.

 

[Adam W]

Given how few petitions actually reach the 100,000 level at all, I think it is unwise to draw the conclusion that the numbers reflect a lack of support. Certainly, if you go through all of the many petitions you'll find a good number which polls (and other sources) suggest had very significant support but didn't manage to top 50,000 let alone double that. The comment regarding people "getting off their backside and attend a Hen Harrier" I find mildly offensive as it betrays a lack of understanding that many people, like me, would like to have attended but could not do so due to circumstances beyond their control.

Sorry John no offence intended I'm sure theres plenty that would have attended if they could have I am however equally sure that a significant percentage of the 115,000 that clicked a few buttons on a computer wouldn't be willing to take it further and do something that required real effort. Out of interest does anyone know the total attendance figures for Hen Harrier days to see how it compares to the petition?

 

[rosbifs]

Adam
out of interest, what are the shooting forums saying? i'm guessing you get round those as well. i had a snoop around the field site. you see the same arguments and figures, as you would expect, that botham was banding about and the press.

as an aside ,i remember an uncle, who was a pigeon fancier, who would have had no qualms whatsoever of popping off a peregrine - he refused point blank to see that he would be breaking the law.

ps i think the first HH day got hundreds (not a 1,000) of people. that is a pretty (bad weather etc.) good show. In contrast we had a 'hunting day' here that pulled in 3,500 people (paying) which is more than double the population of our village!

 

[Nutcracker]

Aside the above point, if the subsidies were EU subsidies, then the EU has full right to consider the case. And your so-called 'Brexit mob' could do nothing to halt that. ... if it is due to violation of EU laws, then it is not invalid now for the obvious reason that Britain is still a member of the EU until the day it leaves.

By use of one legal delaying tactic after another, until Britain has left the EU, and then they can say **** off to the EU lawyers and refuse to hand over any fine.

 

[rosbifs]

Whats interesting with the Walshaw case is that they are claiming generations of land management, loss of valuable jobs, being completely reliant on grouse shooting (which has shaped the land for generations was the quote) etc.

Very funny considering that at the turn of the century the moor was producing 100 brace and now 3,000! This is the problem bannister has taken over a fairly worthless moor killed everything (apart from the grouse), burned everything and completely changed the landscape in 10 years. Now his investment is at risk he is fighting all the way - all the way to his grouse shooting buddies for protection. He has had over 500,000£ in subsidies to specifically not do what he has done.

This is modern grouse shooting - historically although things were popped off it was less of a commercial project and more of a status and prestidge thing - compared to everything for profit. The gamekeepers get bonus payments and now you'll struggle to see a goshawk or hh in this area. You cannot even claim the centuries of 'careful' land management and employment in the area!

 

[Robin Edwards]

Fair points John, I think you know by now how opposed i am to some of the things that go on and yes many will and should feel the same but i'm not sure that means they'd support banning it though.

Adam, more pointed questions if I may.....
If the shooting business and the many organisations involved such as CA, GWCT, Moorland Trust and many more, the Shooting media, The Field, Shooting Times and more all believe that there is a minority criminals in their midst, why don't we see them jumping up and down doing their utmost to oust them, hang them out to dry or worse? They don't seem to be visibly doing very much to address the issue they have if what they are spouting is true?

If you follow some of their leaders on Twitter, you find them to be no more that sneering, petulant bullies intolerant towards anyone who doesn't agree with their ways.

The argument that you bring to BF Adam whereby a few rogues are spoiling it for the majority of responsible estate owners doesn't seem to fit with what I see?

 

[Jos Stratford]

By use of one legal delaying tactic after another, until Britain has left the EU, and then they can say **** off to the EU lawyers and refuse to hand over any fine.

An imposed fine would be subject to payment even after exit.

How intelligent, let's take a thread on an issue we agree about (persecution of raptors) and deliberately deflect it off with comments like 'Brexit mob' to stir division. Leave the Brexit discussion on the Brexit thread, not across as many threads as you can, rarity threads, this one, etc.

 

[Adam W]

Adam, more pointed questions if I may.....
If the shooting business and the many organisations involved such as CA, GWCT, Moorland Trust and many more, the Shooting media, The Field, Shooting Times and more all believe that there is a minority criminals in their midst, why don't we see them jumping up and down doing their utmost to oust them, hang them out to dry or worse? They don't seem to be visibly doing very much to address the issue they have if what they are spouting is true?

If you follow some of their leaders on Twitter, you find them to be no more that sneering, petulant bullies intolerant towards anyone who doesn't agree with their ways.

The argument that you bring to BF Adam whereby a few rogues are spoiling it for the majority of responsible estate owners doesn't seem to fit with what I see?

Im not saying its a few rouges its way more than that all im saying is despite that i believe it has a overall positive impact on conservation, some people agree and not suprisingly some people don't.

 

[Adam W]

Adam
out of interest, what are the shooting forums saying? i'm guessing you get round those as well. i had a snoop around the field site. you see the same arguments and figures, as you would expect, that botham was banding about and the

I honestly couldn't tell you, never been on one, like i said the internet isn't much of a thing to the shooting world.

 

[etudiant]

Im not saying its a few rouges its way more than that all im saying is despite that i believe it has a overall positive impact on conservation, some people agree and not suprisingly some people don't.

Is there any actual evidence of such positive impact on conservation in the UK?
Here in the US, the Duck Stamp, a mandatory purchase as part of a hunting license, has been an outstandingly effective tool for habitat conservation and improvement. What is the equivalent contributing mechanism in the UK?
I recognize the UK may not have as many hunters proportionately as the US, but surely there is something more contributed to conservation by UK hunters than just the shooting estates.

 

[Farnboro John]

I honestly couldn't tell you, never been on one, like i said the internet isn't much of a thing to the shooting world.

They're on the dark web

John

 

[Sharp Shin]

If you have an hour to spare, there a good podcast about Hen Harrier Day 2016 on Talking Naturally. You can find it on Soundcloud here. It's podcast number TN030.

 

[rosbifs]

and some more time - sign this
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/GettingInvolved/Petitions/PE01615

my fear, as discussed on here, is the implementation!

 

[Jack Dawe]

and some more time - sign this
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/GettingInvolved/Petitions/PE01615

There's only two days left though.

 

[Nutcracker]

and some more time - sign this
http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/GettingInvolved/Petitions/PE01615

my fear, as discussed on here, is the implementation!

Do you have to be resident in Scotland for your signature to count?