new petition re driven grouse shooting (8 Viewers)

[rosbifs]

Do you have to be resident in Scotland for your signature to count?

Doesn't ask for a postcode - I marked United Kingdom...

 

[Mary]

Do you have to be resident in Scotland for your signature to count?

It's a while now since I signed, but seem to remember there's a space for comment (unless it was a different petition, there's been so many!), so pointed out that, though not resident, as a wildlife tourist, my view was important.

 

[etudiant]

Do you have to be resident in Scotland for your signature to count?

The petition appears to allow anyone from anywhere to sign, but does permit signatories to specify whether England, Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland.
All recognized countries are offered, from Afghanistan to Zimbabwe, including the UK.
My guess is that they report the vote on a Scotland, UK and all other basis.
I signed, from the USA, just to highlight that there is a tourism aspect.

 

[speyghillie]

The petition appears to allow anyone from anywhere to sign, but does permit signatories to specify whether England, Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland.
All recognized countries are offered, from Afghanistan to Zimbabwe, including the UK.
As a wildlife tourist unfortunately your vote will count for very little, a bit like me voting on the New York skyline as a tourist, the Scottish land reform Bill will make the changes needed as it has the power to introduce laws required for Scotland.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/asp/2016/18/contents/enacted.

 

[Farnboro John]

The petition appears to allow anyone from anywhere to sign, but does permit signatories to specify whether England, Scotland, Wales or Northern Ireland.
All recognized countries are offered, from Afghanistan to Zimbabwe, including the UK.
As a wildlife tourist unfortunately your vote will count for very little, a bit like me voting on the New York skyline as a tourist, the Scottish land reform Bill will make the changes needed as it has the power to introduce laws required for Scotland.
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/asp/2016/18/contents/enacted.

Actually, you are almost certainly wrong: the reason there is a space for comments (as well as an opportunity for voting) is so that the Scottish Government can debate the subject and make decisions, based on the overall well-being of the nation. The economic benefits of wildlife tourism are an increasingly important part of that whereas the "traditional" field "sports" of the rich are an increasing economic irrelevance: and the government will see and treat any signs that the latter is starting to hamper the former accordingly.

John

 

[Mickr]

There's only two days left though.

It only takes a minute or two to sign.

 

[speyghillie]

Actually, you are almost certainly wrong: the reason there is a space for comments (as well as an opportunity for voting) is so that the Scottish Government can debate the subject and make decisions, based on the overall well-being of the nation. The economic benefits of wildlife tourism are an increasingly important part of that whereas the "traditional" field "sports" of the rich are an increasing economic irrelevance: and the government will see and treat any signs that the latter is starting to hamper the former accordingly.

How I wish you were right as I work in wildlife tourism, the fact is wildlife tourism to the Scottish economy was £63 million pounds, sounds a huge amount of money but a small local estate has just been put on the market for £25 million, the Scottish government know who has the money in Scotland, its not that I like the system we have but its the way it is at the moment, and of course a lot of the income from Wildlife tourism in not always near large estates but on water.
I was guiding an Italian photographer yesterday on an estate that had just had a grouse shoot, we still managed to photograph lots of grouse and even a WTE over the grouse moor as well as a couple of Kestrels hunting.
Most Highland estates are expensive to run and almost all run at a yearly loss, but those that have the money really don't care, I know one local estate that the Arab owner has spent millions of pounds in the local community and built a new hydro system that stops the village from flooding in the winter, he has a grouse moor........ but has never bothered to shoot on it, and its a place were you can see Golden Eagles flying most days.
Estates are changing with new money, and I see more and more conservation minded estate owners who have for years allowed the RSPB access to the estate anytime they want and to watch and monitor Raptor nests all year round, the Victorian era is over and while there is some idiot keepers who should be shot, it would be much easier and less expensive to deal with those, I spoke to a estate manager not long ago on this subject and he told me that any keeper who is caught doing anything other than controlling fox and Hoody crow numbers will be fired on the spot and have to leave his estate house, and more than likely never work as a keeper again, like I said the RSPB have access to these estates anytime and are free to go anywhere on the estate they want, and have done for years.
Gordon.

 

[rosbifs]

Actually, you are almost certainly wrong: the reason there is a space for comments (as well as an opportunity for voting) is so that the Scottish Government can debate the subject and make decisions, based on the overall well-being of the nation. The economic benefits of wildlife tourism are an increasingly important part of that whereas the "traditional" field "sports" of the rich are an increasing economic irrelevance: and the government will see and treat any signs that the latter is starting to hamper the former accordingly.

How I wish you were right as I work in wildlife tourism, the fact is wildlife tourism to the Scottish economy was £63 million pounds, sounds a huge amount of money but a small local estate has just been put on the market for £25 million, the Scottish government know who has the money in Scotland, its not that I like the system we have but its the way it is at the moment, and of course a lot of the income from Wildlife tourism in not always near large estates but on water.
I was guiding an Italian photographer yesterday on an estate that had just had a grouse shoot, we still managed to photograph lots of grouse and even a WTE over the grouse moor as well as a couple of Kestrels hunting.
Most Highland estates are expensive to run and almost all run at a yearly loss, but those that have the money really don't care, I know one local estate that the Arab owner has spent millions of pounds in the local community and built a new hydro system that stops the village from flooding in the winter, he has a grouse moor........ but has never bothered to shoot on it, and its a place were you can see Golden Eagles flying most days.
Estates are changing with new money, and I see more and more conservation minded estate owners who have for years allowed the RSPB access to the estate anytime they want and to watch and monitor Raptor nests all year round, the Victorian era is over and while there is some idiot keepers who should be shot, it would be much easier and less expensive to deal with those, I spoke to a estate manager not long ago on this subject and he told me that any keeper who is caught doing anything other than controlling fox and Hoody crow numbers will be fired on the spot and have to leave his estate house, and more than likely never work as a keeper again, like I said the RSPB have access to these estates anytime and are free to go anywhere on the estate they want, and have done for years.
Gordon.

Very encouraging and in the most part you are almost certainly right where Scotland is concerned. We come back to the rogues who can do a lot of damage in the areas that aren't 'friendly' to raptors and the like. However, when 'shoots' are run on a more commercial basis - those that have to make a profit - the picture is not the same.

It has been proven that, in the current climate, a profitable shooting estate needs to be ruthless to survive. In England there is zero tolerance and as the birds pass in spring, autumn, whenever they are erradicated.

As soon as the gates are closed I start to get worried about what is going on behind them. Even those that claim to have a 'conservation' manager - another subsidy - 'for safety purposes we have to keep the public out'...

 

[speyghillie]

That's the beauty of a Right to Roam act in Scotland, you can own the land but you cannot deny access to the public to roam and even responsible wild camp where ever they want.
I can walk on any mountain top or moorland whenever I like and at a time that suits me, no trespass laws in Scotland, unlike England and the USA.
Trespass to land is a civil matter and as such the police have no jurisdiction. Under common law, the landowner has a right to re-entry on the land; however the ejection of the trespasser is fraught with danger for the landowner.

Something every land owner in Scotland is well aware of.
Gordon.

 

[silver prince]

put this into perspective, a gyrfalcon turned up on the western isles hords of folk went on a pilgrimage to vew this bird,they took ferries, booked b and b s and spent there cash it only takes one nob to wreck this ,thats why you need this law.

 

[John Cantelo]

This would be hilarious if it wasn't so serious! According to a Scottish gamekeeper, Donald Macbeth, it's “bird activists” who have been killing off the raptors as part of a smear campaign against those who manage grouse moors. I never realised that 'bird activists' had such ready access to shotguns, traps and long banned poisons. I'm sure that another group must fit that profile rather better .... They also seem to know the fells better than local gamekeepers as they also have a phantom-like ability to commit their crimes on well keepered moors without being caught - ever. One really does start to wonder what the consumption of all that lead shot riddled game has had been doing to the thinking process of some people ...


See - http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07pf4f8#play (from 02:51:37 onwards) & https://raptorpersecutionscotland.w...ing-satellite-tagged-raptors-says-gamekeeper/

 

[MJB]

This would be hilarious if it wasn't so serious! According to a Scottish gamekeeper, Donald Macbeth, it's “bird activists” who have been killing off the raptors as part of a smear campaign against those who manage grouse moors. I never realised that 'bird activists' had such ready access to shotguns, traps and long banned poisons. I'm sure that another group must fit that profile rather better .... They also seem to know the fells better than local gamekeepers as they also have a phantom-like ability to commit their crimes on well keepered moors without being caught - ever. One really does start to wonder what the consumption of all that lead shot riddled game has had been doing to the thinking process of some people ...


See - http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b07pf4f8#play (from 02:51:37 onwards) & https://raptorpersecutionscotland.w...ing-satellite-tagged-raptors-says-gamekeeper/

John,
It's a classic tactic nowadays where instant communication is so prevalent, where an organisation's or individual's privately acknowledged weakness is negated by hurling the same accusation at the opponent - it's called projection.

In politics it's common for both sides to indulge in the tactic, but my opinion is that it's more often a visceral impulse from authoritarians or those with a sense of entitlement.
MJB

 

[John Cantelo]

John,
It's a classic tactic nowadays where instant communication is so prevalent, where an organisation's or individual's privately acknowledged weakness is negated by hurling the same accusation at the opponent - it's called projection.

In politics it's common for both sides to indulge in the tactic, but my opinion is that it's more often a visceral impulse from authoritarians or those with a sense of entitlement.
MJB

You're overcomplicating things, it's just a case of having too much lead in your diet .... ;-)

 

[rosbifs]

it's just a case of having too much lead in your diet .... ;-)

8-P8-P8-P:clap::clap::clap:||||||

 

[MJB]

You're overcomplicating things, it's just a case of having too much lead in your diet .... ;-)

John,
That might be nearer the truth than we realise! :eek!::eek!::eek!:
MJB

 

[JoanT]

Hooray This petition will be going for debate. Still 2 weeks for more people to sign. Heading for 120000 at the moment.

 

[John Cantelo]

Hooray This petition will be going for debate. Still 2 weeks for more people to sign. Heading for 120000 at the moment.

Only 68 to go! Time yet for 150,000!

 

[rosbifs]

where does that put it in overall petition rankings?

 

[Andy Adcock]

Think I should have posted this here instead of in news, I think all signatories of the petition have received this e-mail

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=331013

Andy

 

[moose1991]

Bit late to the party but I signed it last week & an now on page 141 of Mark Avery's Inglorious, should have read it when it came out but at least I'm reading it now.