• Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.

    Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

New Zeiss Victory SF !!!!!! (12 Viewers)

Interesting in that the particular unit tested exhibits many, many of the faults /issues noted on this thread:- softness, blue peripheral rings, less than top $ feeling armour,
Chosun :gh:

Ah !, the blue peripheral ring, I saw this in an early SF and found it very pronounced and irritating, but apparently according to the designer I was tilting the binocular in some irregular way.

Glad to write I did not see this in a later sample I tried back in June, and I see Tobias had an early model.
 
The other interesting point is that Tobias found the user perceived Rolling Ball effect to be stronger in the SF than the SV --- despite the advertised spin!! We know that Holger's average distortion value charts predicted less RB than the SV, so I wonder what precise point curve details are going on here to cause this??! :cat:

Chosun :gh:

According to Dale Forbes, it's not only average distortion value that determines whether or not those who are susceptible see RB in any given bin. The other factor is the distortion pattern (mix of AMD/pincushion).

Here's Dale's reply to my post in which I asked the same question you asked:

Swarovski EL 8.5x42 Swarovision impression View Single Post

Holger later chimed in with a comparative description of the distortion patterns of the two bins (SV EL vs. SF). The SV EL has the (in)famous mustache distortion whereas the SF's pattern is quite different, though I didn't bookmark his post, which gives the details. Perhaps our archivist, mooreorless, can dig it out.

Brock
 
Is Binomania related to the Binostore that sells Zeiss SF?

Hi, no isn't. I don't know the Binostore team.
If I decide to open an online store I sell 'all brands, not just Zeiss : t: For now Binomania is only a website of impressions on the field.
By the way, actually i own a Zeiss SF and some days ago i've received the new EL from Swarovski for a review.
I hope to test them with attention.
Kind Regards from Italy
Piergiovanni
 
I'm a little disturbed that Piergiovanni Salimbeni downloaded and used my photo of Gerold Dobler without asking permission or giving credit. But I agreed with all his points on his review.

(Not important but here's my original photo, taken last June on the "Zeiss Experience" trip in Europe. https://www.flickr.com/photos/lauraerickson/14414278784 )

Hi Laura, i am very sorry for this. I've asked the image from Zeiss Italy, that send me this link::-C
https://farm6.staticflickr.com/5493/14414278784_bcb774fa1e.jpg
I thought it was an official photo for journalists
I've inserted your copyright on my article. If you want that i delete your image, please let me know!
I'm sorry, this has happened to me and I know it's an unfortunate thing:-( so, excuse me!
Piergiovanni
 
Last edited:
Their web store shows books, that was all I see. I suspect it was just the over all superior performance of the SF that led them to that conclusion. :t:


You really have a hard time letting go, to be safe, you really ought to buy an SF to go with your swaros, that way you could say you have the two best in the world, and it would give the rest of us a break from your incessant whining and arguments if someone says they like the SF better than others. It really gets old.


Hi from Italy, you're right. It's very difficult, at least for me, declare a real winner. I am using the new EL these days vs the SF and each has CONS and PRO.
Obviously one is a 8x and one a 8.5X, so there are significant differences.
By the way:
I like Zeiss SF for the field of view, even if the new EL is sharp to the edge.
I noticed a strange thing: maybe Swarovski has modified again the distortion. I had two models of EL. The first was with a flat field and without distortion, the second sample had distortion and a better panning.
The new one is more similar to my first EL specimen. Maybe, in Austria having the Swarovski SLC in catalog, has decided to step back. Is my poor opinion, obviously.

For now I only observed in the field and I have not made precise measurements. I prefer to do so: There are so many things on the field that are not seen in the laboratory :) so, please, excuse me If I'm still not exhaustive.

When the sun is on the side of the SF, it has less stray light inside the optical tube respecet EL, but 'because of the large field of view and for large eyepieces field stop, I see, sometimes, a "red reflex in the form of nail", at the end of the field, near the corner of prism.
I must try to see the stars to verify if I notice stars reflected.
Brock, will laugh now but I can confirm that my E II does not do this problem .-)
The new EL is more sharpness to my eyes ( but you have to get close the EL for comparison) and "maybe" Leica HD PLUS is more sharpness than EL.

Instead the Zeiss SF is more' bright and show green in a most 'brilliant tone. The focus of EL has improved and i prefer the amount of accessories that Swarovski offer. For me this is a major gap of Zeiss: I am using on SF the WES winged eyecup and are fine! Zeiss , please give us some new accessories and a rubber more 'serious" charming and durable.

During this year I have loved these features in these binoculars:

Leica HD Plus: Sharpness and color.
Kowa Genesis 8.5x44: contrast, and zero chromatic aberration on axis( for my eyes)
Zeiss SF: field of view, ergonomy,balance to the eyes.
Swarovski EL 2016 : a good compromise even if they could make major changes.
Now you ask me what I like best?
I do not know, I love both pizza and lasagna: it is a difficult decision for me: I am a "binomane"

One thing you can say. If Kowa presented a new binoculars, I think the Alpha Europeans would have big , big problems.

I am using still, after six years, the 8.5x44 and, as contrast and chromatic aberration correction, still has much to teach.

I really bothered chromatic aberration: last year I compared the ATX to my 883 for long time and, at the end, I kept the 883 because it is more 'correct on axis.

Anyway you are all lucky. The birdwatcher have many binoculars to choose. I am also an amateur astronomer and now, companies produce mainly refractors to photograph and often are almost all the same, just change the logo. :-(

My two cents, and excuse for my poor english.I would have many things to write to you, but I find it hard :)
 

Attachments

  • zeissSV-swarovski_EL.jpg
    zeissSV-swarovski_EL.jpg
    111 KB · Views: 160
Last edited:
Hi Binomania,

I like your report! A question: What can you say about sharpness o resolution in the Kowa Genesis 8,5x44? I am intrigued if you have made some evaluation on this...Being so well corrected in CA and having so good contrast....

Thank you!

PHA
 
Piergiovanni

Does the 2016 EL correct CA better, worse, or the same as the previous model.

Thanks
Robert


Hi Robert: it's difficult for me, 'cause i've not at home the old specimen. From memory, I do not notice much difference.
Today it rains here, and I just finished watching a hawk perched on a birch tree near my house. At the center of the field SF and the EL have a containment of chromatic aberration quite similar. Sometimes the SF seems better in the center, but shows a more lateral chromatic.
You must also think that the perception of the chromatic aberration is subjective as distortion.
However, I repeat, are two different sizes 8X and 8.5x ,with different field of view and it is difficult to make a perfect comparison.
 

Attachments

  • Sf_EL.jpg
    Sf_EL.jpg
    60.3 KB · Views: 111
Hi Binomania,

I like your report! A question: What can you say about sharpness o resolution in the Kowa Genesis 8,5x44? I am intrigued if you have made some evaluation on this...Being so well corrected in CA and having so good contrast....

Thank you!

PHA

Hello PHA, in recent years I have tried various specimens of Kowa Genesis for Binomania.it: 8.5x44, 10.5x44, 8x33,10x33. In principle, they have an excellent resolving power and thanks to the warm tone and the high contrast show good detail. I could do a test with the USAF chart because now my friend use the Kowa 8.5x44. Years ago, I wrote also on binomania.it, I was stunned when a Genesis 8x33 showed 'better USAF CHART details than a Victory 8x32 FL.
The Zeiss SF is sharp and has a good contrast. You can find difference only during a serious confrontation and during different lighting conditions.
Ciao!
 
Piergiovanni,
I fully agree with the high quality optics of the kowa
I have the 883 and the atx myself and use both in the field , the kowa is just sharper and gives more detail
Same for the prominar 10,5x44 :best sharpness above all other el , sf and hd plus.
I could use the sf quite intensively during the last weeks and must admit it to be a stunning bin , especially , the balance and focus drive are a pro, the CA sharpness is also better than the EL ( i compared 3 times SF with EL of my friends and they all agreed on the better sharpness)
I did several tests with 10x42 hd plus compared with the sf and el and , sorry to say , but , leica is just underperforming the others , especially , much more chromatic aberration and less transmission.
i tested 3 hd plus bins , also the one I have in my collection , and , although I love leica for its robustness and compactness , we all had the impression that the sharpness was inferior to the other alfa's.
Just an honest experience the last 4 weeks
I also had the occasion to test a new 10x50 el which underperformed in sharpness compared with a 10x42 in the same conditions.I was a bit confused , perhaps sample variation explains this ?The focus drive of the new el has much improved.
 
i tested 3 hd plus bins , also the one I have in my collection , and , although I love leica for its robustness and compactness , we all had the impression that the sharpness was inferior to the other alfa's.
Just an honest experience the last 4 weeks
I also had the occasion to test a new 10x50 el which underperformed in sharpness compared with a 10x42 in the same conditions.I was a bit confused , perhaps sample variation explains this ?The focus drive of the new el has much improved.

the 10x50 HD got very high score at allbinos,
also transmission was very good,
and would be even better in the HD Plus models,

http://www.allbinos.com/194-binoculars_review-Leica_Ultravid_10x50_HD.html
 
i tested 3 hd plus bins , also the one I have in my collection , and , although I love leica for its robustness and compactness , we all had the impression that the sharpness was inferior to the other alfa's.

Hi, i've only a single experience with a specimen of Leica HD Plus. I remember i tested vs EL, Kowa and SF and Leica had a sharpness in the center "slightly better" than the others. In contrast Leica had much chromatic aberration. The Leica HD plus review binomania has written by my friend that suffers less this problem. I remember that we were not quite agree on this thing. :)

In any case there may be slight differences between binoculars and another and are almost always hard to see if you look at the nature and not only binoculars!:)
 
distortion pattern

Globetrotter - settle down a bit son, that 5-way alpha dawg shootout is the sole subject of the link to Tobias's thread that I posted directly before you! .... good to see that my powers of communication, persuasion, and influence are as well received as ever! |^| Seeing that Tobias authored the shootout, I think it's best we leave relevant comparison arguments largely to that thread ..... especially if they don't concern the SF :news:

What I did want to do was point out that each of those alpha dawgs has a fuller in depth review of their own ..... so I've linked the SF one.

Interesting in that the particular unit tested exhibits many, many of the faults /issues noted on this thread:- softness, blue peripheral rings, less than top $ feeling armour, woeful focuser with slop and Brock's favourite - uneven directional tension, just to name a few .....

And while this might just be a unit to unit variation, or an early iteration, I think it is inexcusable at this price point. :storm:

Everyone can be forgiven, if out attitude is warmhearted enough. And heck, it´s only a pair of binoculars, not a lifetime decision. We also know that focusing issues are not trivial at all, at least since we have these crazy minimum distances. In the SF they have incorporated the focusing group into the objectives, so that´s something really new as far as I understand. And as always, with any company, early adopters pay a high price. Don´t remind me of that Canon camera I bought and that was unusable after two weeks in the field with a sensor totally dusty and covered in debris from an internal mechanism. Nevertheless I´ll buy a Canon again, they surely have learned from all the mistakes... Anyway, in Germany the SF is now same street price as the Swarovision.

Also of great concern is the colour rendition ......
"Colour reproduction* to my eyes is problematic with a yellowgreen cast.*For me this is a serious fault in the SF´s design.*Check out a white wall on a cloudy day. Accordingly, greens sparkle very saturated, but purples and skin tones are a bit subdued."

It´s so ironic to me that in the whole film industry the main technical issue always is to make people look good, so a lens with even the slightest green cast would be considered useless. We are, for good reasons, very good in judging skin tones, that´s for sure. But then, here it´s more about birds.

Surely at this price point a neutral colour reproduction would be De riguer?! This was one of the key factors in the SF finishing behind both the HT and SV .......
One of the "tricks" manufacturers use to artificially boost transmission % is to optimise for the green-yellow spectrum ..... which is what Zeiss seems to have done here at the expense of 'pop' in the red and blue. Those "like never before" Martian-like red coatings and lack of HT glass have really hurt here. For this price point HT glass and re-optimised coatings would have provided greater transmission % AND a neutral colour cast.

The use of HT glass may not be trivial, too.

I´d bet Zeiss will change the coatings a bit, at least in new models, because a master optics IMO cannot afford such color casts even if most users will not object. If they can combine all the best of the SF and the HT we´d see something totally great. A change in distortion pattern, slightly different coatings, and HT glass.

The other interesting point is that Tobias found the user perceived Rolling Ball effect to be stronger in the SF than the SV --- despite the advertised spin!! We know that Holger's average distortion value charts predicted less RB than the SV, so I wonder what precise point curve details are going on here to cause this??! :cat:

As Henry Link has recently posted about his SF and HT encounter, I rechecked the distortion pattern of the SF - and I admit I was way too sloppy on that because on first sight it looked vey similar to the 8.5x Swarovision. The Swarovisions central pincushion is reducing towards the edge to an almost rectilinear rendering. The SF has a wavy distortion in most parts of the field going to rectilinear near the edge. That explains the really strong RB in the SF which I would find problematic for my use.

Holger is often cited but in this case he was probably on the wrong track, he was thinking about a new distortion paradigm, basically less pincushion, and using a constant distortion in his model. The distortion patterns we are looking at are complex, change over the image field and - as far as I understand - cannot be described using a constant. Thats exactly what makes them so annoying, it´s a chaotic warping.


Chosun :gh:

Tobias
 
Last edited:
Yes Tobias, the wavy 'mustache' - type (invert, reverse, or not) distortion pattern was what I was referring to with my "precise point curve details" comment ...... Brock promptly effectively agreed with me in the next post (while at the same time making it look like he was arguing with me despite not knowing a cracker of what he was talking about! 3:) ) :-O

Not only is the absolute point (or degree) value of distortion important, but so is the rate of change (2nd derivative .... perhaps Brock can enrol in a high school calculus course??! :h?: :scribe: ). Such abrupt value changes may explain why more people are seeming to find the SF distortion disturbing and at the same time being ok with the SV's. Holger's fantastic model by his own caveat uses an averaged value (and indeed little discussed on these pages anyway, correlates that to the eye's own distortion coefficient, which also appears to be an averaged value, and neglects what must be the myriad different distortional profiles among the entire viewing populace's own eyeballs ...... however, I fear we may have just lost everyone save for Ed, Henry link, Holger himself, and a few theoretical quantum physicists! ;) )

That said, Holger's model and eye tests portal is still a useful first step for anyone wondering how they will handle flat field machinations .... and it's useful to remember that less than 20% of the buying public will be affected ----- despite Brock's hysteria !!! :storm: *teacup smilie* ...... teehee :))

Zeiss themselves (buried in the treasure trove of BF somewhere .... where is Pompadour when you need him? :) have virtually admitted (hinted) that the distortion profile may be subject to future adjustments and refinements ......

FOLKS! WELCOME TO THE ERA OF BEING A $3000 GUINEA PIG!!! :eek!:

And while they may only be binoculars ...... it's $3000 !!! As well :smoke:

We seem to agree that the incremental improvements offered by HT glass would also be a worthwhile addition to help neutralize the colour rendition ..... for over 2&1/2 grand you would hope so! and that it will be offered as a no cost upgrade o:D

Btw, the objective / focusing setup is standard - just has different positive and negative elements than some other conventions and moves in a different direction? is all if my understanding of Henry's explanation is correct .... let's keep the overblown revelations firmly in the Zeiss Marketing Department ballpark please :))


Chosun :gh:
 
Thanks Piergiovanni

How well do you think the SVs do with CA correction ? If my EL10X50SV was as good at eliminating CA as the Kowa Genesis 10X44 I had, it would have a nearly flawless image in my opinion. Strangely enough the Kowa I had wasn't sharp. I must of had a bad example.


Hi Robert: it's difficult for me, 'cause i've not at home the old specimen. From memory, I do not notice much difference.
Today it rains here, and I just finished watching a hawk perched on a birch tree near my house. At the center of the field SF and the EL have a containment of chromatic aberration quite similar. Sometimes the SF seems better in the center, but shows a more lateral chromatic.
You must also think that the perception of the chromatic aberration is subjective as distortion.
However, I repeat, are two different sizes 8X and 8.5x ,with different field of view and it is difficult to make a perfect comparison.
 
Thanks Piergiovanni

How well do you think the SVs do with CA correction ? If my EL10X50SV was as good at eliminating CA as the Kowa Genesis 10X44 I had, it would have a nearly flawless image in my opinion. Strangely enough the Kowa I had wasn't sharp. I must of had a bad example.

Hi, Generally i like EL CA correction. The ' One that does not like me a lot is the 12x50: it shows quite CA on axis during cloudy days, at least, for my taste. Unfortunately I do not know if the companies send me selected products for my review . However, the 10.5x44 Kowa specimen, I had used, was sharp.
 
I just weighed the EL and the SF .
With original caps and strap the weights are as follows:
Zeiss SF: 842g
Swarovski EL: 950g

Without caps and strap.
Zeiss SF:782g
Swarovski EL : 840g
 
Warning! This thread is more than 6 years ago old.
It's likely that no further discussion is required, in which case we recommend starting a new thread. If however you feel your response is required you can still do so.

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top