Nikon D7000 ISO Experts (1 Viewer)

[woodsc]

Hi
I recently purchased a Nikon D7000 and have subsequently started bird photography. This week I have purchased a Nikon 300mm f2.8 Lens in conjunction with a 1.4 converter (wanted some versatility) so I didn't go for longer focal length lens (500mm) ~ I'm also broke!!

My question to those experts using this cameras for bird photography is what level can you push the ISO levels to without showing too much noise.

I tested this new lens yesterday in poor lighting conditions and subsequently was struggling with shutter speeds.

Went into a hide and there was a Bittern ~ 20ft away ~ had to shoot quickly as a result I only shot at 1/250th and the result was disappointing (I'll post one on the forum for you guys to have a look at)

As a novice I'm looking for any advice relating to best practices in taking birds ~ talking to a couple of guys yesterday they kindly told me where possible to shot on Aperture Priority to achieve best shutter speed and to wind the ISO up slightly

Any advice would be appreciated ~ Thank You

Regards ..Colin

 

[Duke Leto]

1/250 sec is more than adequate to shoot Bitterns at, assuming it was walking not flying. A flight shot at that shutter speed is reasonably straight forward but needs a little skill in panning. If you could share an image it will give folks a chance to elaborate. For ground shots I've got bitterns in my gallery at speeds as slow as 1/80 sec taken with a non vr 400/2.8. You're concerns maybe more to do with technique and set up than iso. Were you hand holding or was it mounted? Put up a shot to assist. I'll let the users of the D7000 comment but I'd expect iso up to 1600 to return good images.
Taken at 1/100 sec http://www.birdforum.net/gallery/showphoto.php/photo/409524/ppuser/35693

In difficult lighting you may want to set the minimum shutter speed so you know it won't drop and let the iso float to maintain it (auto iso with an upper limit say 200 - 1600) or just keep it on aperture priority at the higher iso. It's really your preference. I was shooting short-eared owls recently in failing light and kept the shutter set to 1/250 and let the iso maintain the speed.

With that body and lens plus tc you are geared up for a superb photographic experience.

 

[woodsc]

Hi Steve
Thanks for your comments
The images I took of the Bittern were taken with the camera resting on the hide shelf.
I have been out again today and took some shots of a Grey Heron ~ I don't seem to be getting the quality I expected from a lens of this quality ~ obviously it must be me and as you say down to technique.
The lighting was down taken about 14.30 I used Aperture P (ISO 1000) 1/800th f4.5 as I thought the need for a fast shutter.
I have submitted the image on the gallery (not up to speed on attachments)
Don't feel I'm getting the photographic experience as yet
Any advice appreciated
Regards..Colin

 

[Duke Leto]

Colin they look okay to me considering the conditions. I'd rather let users of the D7000 comment on the capabilities. What also isn't clear is how heavy the crop is on these images.
If you wish to add images to the forum just click on "go advanced" below the text box and you can add them in the next window, below the post icons you'll see a number of options, the first is miscellaneous options and the next manage attachments. Would be good to post the original (in JPEG) as well as the final version.

 

[Neil]

Hi
I recently purchased a Nikon D7000 and have subsequently started bird photography. This week I have purchased a Nikon 300mm f2.8 Lens in conjunction with a 1.4 converter (wanted some versatility) so I didn't go for longer focal length lens (500mm) ~ I'm also broke!!

My question to those experts using this cameras for bird photography is what level can you push the ISO levels to without showing too much noise.

I tested this new lens yesterday in poor lighting conditions and subsequently was struggling with shutter speeds.

Went into a hide and there was a Bittern ~ 20ft away ~ had to shoot quickly as a result I only shot at 1/250th and the result was disappointing (I'll post one on the forum for you guys to have a look at)

As a novice I'm looking for any advice relating to best practices in taking birds ~ talking to a couple of guys yesterday they kindly told me where possible to shot on Aperture Priority to achieve best shutter speed and to wind the ISO up slightly

Any advice would be appreciated ~ Thank You

Regards ..Colin

Colin
You've got one of Nikons best lenses there. ISO 1600 should be ok with little/no noise, but you should do your own tests to establish your baseline. In poor light you can't expect great photographs at distance, but you have the option of shooting at 2.8 which will help to keep your shutter speeds up. I would like at least 1/1000th for moving subjects with that lens. To me freezing the action is moor important than noise levels.
Good luck with your new gear.
Neil

 

[woodsc]

Thanks for your comments Neil
I'll keep testing the equipment to establish best combination
Regards..Colin

 

[woodsc]

Hi Steve
As suggested I have attached before and after images for you to have a look at (If the training session works!!)
Regards..Colin

 

[Duke Leto]

Colin I take it the slightly larger one (looking on my iPad) is the original. If so it looks better than the modified one. Less noise. I need to look at them on a larger screen.

 

[Frogfish]

Colin. I would set your ISO to Auto ISO and set the range you are happy with (noise levels), maybe 6,400 max. Then set the camera to M and set your preferred aperture and shutter speed for the current conditions.
This gives you control over the shutter speed and DoF at all times, not the camera (which is what happens in A, S or P mode). The best example of the benefits here are when the bird moves from shadow to bright light and you don't have to change anything - the camera will increase/reduce the ISO for you. Same applies when you are on a bird in a bush and then it flies and you have gone from shadow in the bush to panning against the sky.

Personally I will keep opening the aperture (when the ISO is maxed out) to reduce the ISO rather than change the shutter speed (no good having bright noise-less shots when they are blurred) and take off the TC when you reach your limits on everything. The 300/2.8 is a brilliant lens even without the TC.

 

[Duke Leto]

The best example of the benefits here are when the bird moves from shadow to bright light and you don't have to change anything - the camera will increase/reduce the ISO for you. Same applies when you are on a bird in a bush and then it flies and you have gone from shadow in the bush to panning against the sky.

Hmmm not sure I follow that logic, if you're trying to shoot a bird in shadow and then it moves to bright light / flies you will need to compensate for the background or reflected light otherwise you blow the highlights or loose the shadows, this can't be achieved by floating the iso. Also when the iso increases you will need to dial in a little more exposure. I find that on my Nikon bodies when I get to 3200 / 6400 I may be shooting at +1ev

 

[Frogfish]

Hmmm not sure I follow that logic, if you're trying to shoot a bird in shadow and then it moves to bright light / flies you will need to compensate for the background or reflected light otherwise you blow the highlights or loose the shadows, this can't be achieved by floating the iso. Also when the iso increases you will need to dial in a little more exposure. I find that on my Nikon bodies when I get to 3200 / 6400 I may be shooting at +1ev

Think you need to check Nikon's own recommendations then because it is quite clear in their Technical Guide ... and they can do a much better job of explaining it than I can !

Auto ISO sensitivity control is ideal for scenes with large variations in brightness.

http://nps.nikonimaging.com/technical_solutions/archives/pdf/D3S_TechnicalGuide.pdf

 

[Duke Leto]

I agree it does help with large variations of brightness what it doesn't do is compensate if the light changes on or behind a subject. This it what occurs in theory if a subject went from dark to light. Shoot a bird on the ground and then in the sky, if you expose for the bird on the ground and change nothing. When it's in the sky depending on the background it will be varying degrees of under exposed. You have a couple of examples of this in your smugmug gallery images 41 and 45, these appear under exposed as the background is brighter and not enough exposure compensation was employed.
You may want to relate that section of the handbook with the one on exposure and backlighting.
Here's one from Nikon
http://imaging.nikon.com/history/basics/04/07.htm

Or an independent one here. http://digital-photography-school.com/ev-compensation-explained

 

[monoglypha]

I have used this camera and found the maximum ISO i would use is 1600 and then I could remove the noise easily with NR software, just looked at the bittern image and it looks fine to me, maybe a bit more work in PS but the makings of a very good image

 

[Frogfish]

I agree it does help with large variations of brightness what it doesn't do is compensate if the light changes on or behind a subject. This it what occurs in theory if a subject went from dark to light. Shoot a bird on the ground and then in the sky, if you expose for the bird on the ground and change nothing. When it's in the sky depending on the background it will be varying degrees of under exposed. You have a couple of examples of this in your smugmug gallery images 41 and 45, these appear under exposed as the background is brighter and not enough exposure compensation was employed.
You may want to relate that section of the handbook with the one on exposure and backlighting.
Here's one from Nikon
http://imaging.nikon.com/history/basics/04/07.htm

Or an independent one here. http://digital-photography-school.com/ev-compensation-explained

Thanks for the links - I've just taken a quick perusal but will go through them in more depth, after work, this evening. However the EV button doesn't work with my preferred mode (M and Auto ISO) so it would mean switching to either A or S, neither of which I like for birding when I want to control both Aperture and Shutter Speed (unless in a fixed position, e.g. a hide) when the stable conditions would permit me to go full M and switch to a fixed ISO.

The other issue with adjusting EV exposure is speed, if you are suddenly moving from ground/bush/tree to sky it's usually because of a flyby, in which case often there is only a few seconds at most to react (unless the bird is a cruising raptor) so changing EV on the fly would have to be very rapid (and even then probably that would only be possible from developing proficiency in this technique - something that may also cost a lot of under/over exposed shots in the meantime). I'm not sure which would give the more consistent results given that often I am in locations I will not be returning to often (if at all) and not wanting to miss the shot of a bird I may or may not see again.

Also thanks for taking a look at my work. However I'm not sure which shots you are refering to since they are not numbered (at least not for the owner of the site)
Can you tell me which folder (usually it will be by species or by country) and then the shot within the folder ?

Cheers !
Kevin

 

[Duke Leto]

EV won't work in Manual as you achieve the same results by changing the aperture or shutter speed. These can be done quickly by adjusting either the front sub command or rear command wheel. It's personal preference as to how you shoot, in good light I tend to use AV and let the shutter speed float, with the latest Nikon bodies it makes negligible impact if you shoot at 200 or 1600iso so shutter speed should always be fast enough. In poor light I tend to shoot in TV as I want to make sure that the chosen shutter speed is maintained, this us usually 1/250 sec which will give me enough speed for static or flight shots iso up to 3200 will usually maintain that speed. Again with the placement of the EV button on the superb nikon bodies I find (after much practice) that I can adjust exposure very quickly, using the front sub command wheel as my thumb is used to activate the AF via the AF-on button (I don't focus with the shutter button for obvious reasons) The same is achievable in M as described earlier.
It's important to realise there's a number of ways to achieve the same result, you just need to do what you prefer and not be swayed by others methods.

When I click on your link it takes me to your popular images, the birds don't appear to be named so the id that appears is a number.

 

[Frogfish]

EV won't work in Manual as you achieve the same results by changing the aperture or shutter speed. These can be done quickly by adjusting either the front sub command or rear command wheel.

Which is what I do now (adjust shutter/aperture as required) - but this doesn't adjust for backlighting because of course with Auto-ISO the camera will compensate by then adjusting the ISO to try to give you a perfect exposure again

Again with the placement of the EV button on the superb nikon bodies I find (after much practice) that I can adjust exposure very quickly, using the front sub command wheel

Something I'll have to give a go in a non-critical shooting situation I think.

......as my thumb is used to activate the AF via the AF-on button (I don't focus with the shutter button for obvious reasons)

I only use the AF-on for focusing. For birds I agree, it really is the only way.

When I click on your link it takes me to your popular images, the birds don't appear to be named so the id that appears is a number.

Ah ! A peculiarity of SmugMug. Since the order of these often change it's impossible to know which one someone is referring to without a folder name etc. You need to click on the shot then when it displays it will ask you if you want to go to the folder that shot resides in. You will then have the folder and know which shot # it is.

 

[Duke Leto]

so the answer is to set up one of the configurable menus so that when you shoot in manual auto iso is off, can't have manual and auto iso on if you want to control exposure

 

[Frogfish]

so the answer is to set up one of the configurable menus so that when you shoot in manual auto iso is off, can't have manual and auto iso on if you want to control exposure

Well I shoot in M all the time when birding (and most other times but those other times I am usually in full Manual so I control the ISO too) so going without Auto ISO is not a likely scenario for me.

As they say it is better to have a sharp under/over exposed image than one perfectly exposed but blurred because of slow shutter speed (A or P mode). Especially so with the DR range of the D800E and D3s with which it is usually pretty easy to recover under or over exposed images anyway.

As you can see from my SmugMug the pros of Auto ISO easily out-weigh the cons most of the time, and no system is perfect.
If you are set up for BIF and only BIF I can see the advantages .. but not when where I bird most of the birds are in very variable light on the ground/in the bush/in a tree with just an occasional fly-over.

S would likely be the only mode I will experiment with, following your advice above, to see if adjusting EV on the fly works for me and the way I bird and to see whether I actually get more keepers that way, or not, than using Auto ISO.

 

[Duke Leto]

As they say it is better to have a sharp under/over exposed image than one perfectly exposed but blurred because of slow shutter speed (A or P mode). Especially so with the DR range of the D800E and D3s with which it is usually pretty easy to recover under or over exposed images anyway.

Not sure who says that, me I'd rather have a correctly exposed sharp image. I'm not interested in image recovery. To me that just means I've not taken the image correctly. I guess being old school I was used to having fixed iso. This new technology offers a little more flexibility.

Like I said its down to personal preference.

 

[woodsc]

We'll gentleman a very interesting debate
I'm of the same opinion as Steve it's down to personal preference. I have messaged a photographer on Flickr who images I admire and his preference is aperture p he sets the ISO normally to 800 and aperture to f6.3. Obviously this will change depending on circumstances.
I'm still trying to sort my preference. I have a quality lens/camera so the problem is me and I need to sort those preferences
One issue that maybe be a problem is I don't appear to be fully in focus I have the camera set AF-C and to centre focus (multipoints turned off) My recent images have been taken with the lens wide open hence limited depth of field.
Weather is looking good tomorrow so I'm going out to try different modes etc and hopefully get an image that meets my expectation of this expensive lens.
Regards..Colin