Norfolk birding (83 Viewers)

[Nick Moran]

Hi Nick,

discussed in depth here http://www.surfbirds.com/forum/showthread.php?t=8120&highlight=Cockshoot

All the best

Cheers Connor.

Although I can't see the Surfbirds pics of the Cockshoot bird, I've seen Dave Appleton's and I'm still not convinced the issues raised for that one hold for the Ranworth bird. Worth a look if you happen to be in that neck of the woods (and aren't fed up to the back teeth with these already).

Shame all Broads Ferruginous Ducks seem to have a question mark hanging over them at the moment - I'd struggle to come up with a more suitable area (both in terms of geography and habitat) for wild ones to pitch in.

N

 

[Nick Moran]

I have just bought next year’s tide tables. The ones I’ve had for the last few years will no longer be produced.

These I have to make do with are neither so easy on the eye, nor user-friendly- especially as regards height of the tide.

The old one is on the left (in the attached Word.doc); the new one, the right.

Never had that problem with EasyTide (eg http://easytide.ukho.gov.uk/EASYTIDE/EasyTide/ShowPrediction.aspx?PortID=0161&PredictionLength=7 ) - but you have to be content planning no more than a week in advance (or shell out for a subscription!).

N

 

[Dave Appleton]

Cheers Connor.

Although I can't see the Surfbirds pics of the Cockshoot bird, I've seen Dave Appleton's and I'm still not convinced the issues raised for that one hold for the Ranworth bird. Worth a look if you happen to be in that neck of the woods (and aren't fed up to the back teeth with these already).

Shame all Broads Ferruginous Ducks seem to have a question mark hanging over them at the moment - I'd struggle to come up with a more suitable area (both in terms of geography and habitat) for wild ones to pitch in.

N

I think most (if not all) observers are content that it's not a first generation hybrid, however the question remains as to whether or not it is a backcrossed hybrid (and I'm assuming the Ranworth bird is the same bird as the Cockshoot Broad bird - I think it's been seen with its young hybrid at both sites and they're very close as the duck flies). Personally I couldn't see anything wrong with the belly pattern, though I only got a brief view of that. The head shape did concern me - for most of the time I watched it (especially last winter) it looked worryingly rounded, although every now and then it showed a classic Ferruginous shape. Whether or not its within normal variation for pure Ferruginous Duck I'm not 100% certain - I suspect it may be but then again a second or subsequent generation hybrid would, potentially, be extremely difficult to separate from a pure bird. For me with birds like this, unless it shows features that clearly cannot exist on a pure bird then the common sense approach seems to be to treat it as pure whilst recognising that the possibility of it not being totally pure cannot be eliminated.

I suspect that most of us don't have all that much experience of female Ferruginous Ducks in their normal range. I wouldn't be surprised if we'd find they were rather more variable than the books and some ID articles would have us believe.

As for the bird's origin, there have been plastic-ringed and/or very tame birds in the Broads in recent years, and as this bird was oversummering last year at least (not sure if it was seen this summer and bred locally or not, but I expect so) there has to be some doubt hanging over it. If it were proved to be a backcrossed hybrid (and backcrossed with Ferruginous Duck) then that would probably damage its credentials. Personally I think that a shadow of doubt hangs over any record of Ferruginous Duck in the UK, but that undoubtedly many of them are wild - it's just impossible to know for any given record. Oversummering doesn't help this one's case but it doesn't prove anything. As you say, the Broads are as good a place as any for wild ones.

Whatever it is and wherever it came from, I couldn't find it at Ranworth yesterday afternoon, nor the Ring-necked Duck. Fantastic numbers of dabbling duck there though (especially Teal), plus 2 Goosander and overhead Bewick's Swans. Don't remember it being that good last time I went there.

 

[ben_lewis]

At the moment in the Ranworth area there are currently 3 Ferruginous Ducks. 2 hybrids (1 female and her back crossed hybrid offspring) and a seemingly pure female which appears to have prefered Malthouse Broad, opposite the Maltsers pub, I first saw that bird 2 weeks ago, but not since.
Apparently the hybrid female has a habit of keeping her tail down making the white vent look smaller whereas the pure(r) female keeps her tail cocked showing off a large pure white vent, this is useful at distance. Other than that the head shape is obviously far better, bill looks good and lacks the white flecking along the sides of the breast.
I have photos of the purer bird but my camera is in my desk in the office, will post later.

It does seem odd that there are so many Fudge ducks in this part of the broads, at Strumpshaw we had a male (no rings) for the majority of last winter and now this female along with a whole string of other records in recent years. If we are getting some pure birds it has to be one of the best areas of England for seeing this species??

 

[firstreesjohn]

Never had that problem with EasyTide (eg http://easytide.ukho.gov.uk/EASYTIDE/EasyTide/ShowPrediction.aspx?PortID=0161&PredictionLength=7 ) - but you have to be content planning no more than a week in advance (or shell out for a subscription!).

N

Thanks for this, Nick.

Unfortunately, I’d already ascertained that this site does not give what it calls ‘enhanced predictions’ (with the easy-on-the-eye tidal graph that I was seeking) for the ‘port’ for which I usually require this info.

Anyone else know of a better site ?

 

[gnome]

Cley Western Sandpiper

Hi all,
I'm thinking of coming to Norfolk tomorrow for the Western sandpiper and was wondering what the situation is with regards to access to the hides for non NWT members. Do you actually have to wait until 10am for the Visitor's Centre to open or can you go to the hides sooner and pay when the warden comes round?

Also any advice as to which hide is best for the Western (which I understand is rather mobile) and how frequently it turns up?

TIA

Adam

 

[firstreesjohn]

access to the hides for non NWT members.
Also any advice as to which hide is best for the Western

I understand that access to the reserve has been unofficially sanctioned before the published opening time. It is assumed that people doing this will pay later at the Visitor Centre. For some reason, this does not always happen !

I have been told that The Bird is often better seen first thing from Bishop’s Hide- the one nearest to the coast road.

Then, it is better from the central hide complex.

 

[gnome]

I understand that access to the reserve has been unofficially sanctioned before the published opening time. It is assumed that people doing this will pay later at the Visitor Centre. For some reason, this does not always happen !

I have been told that The Bird is often better seen first thing from Bishop’s Hide- the one nearest to the coast road.

Then, it is better from the central hide complex.

Thanks for that. I did actually ring them up and, as you've said, was told that I could access the hides before the official opening time as long as I pop in to the Visitor Centre and pay once they're open.

 

[Jack Harrison]

Tides
This is as accurate as you need.

http://www.tides4fishing.com/uk/england/hunstanton

Change location as required.
After all, tide times unlike astronomical phenomena) can NEVER be predicted with great accuracy given the variability of the weather (eg, wind)

Jack

 

[firstreesjohn]

Thanks, Jack.

Again and unfortunately, this site neither gives the ‘fishing location’ I desire, nor does it present the tide height in immediately graspable graphics, as did my ‘old’ tide tables.

Unless anyone else finds one that does this, I shall have to make do and mend. This takes much more time, of course, than a quick glance.

A thin, frozen sheet covered most of Felbrigg Lake. I cannot remember having seen so many Mute Swans here (Simon and/or Rob can assist with this): 20 white, one brownish. To save anyone counting: not all are in the shot.

Also, they were, at times, hardly living up to their descriptor: giving the occasional croaky yelp, as many began to pair off and squabble.

Some Siskins flew over and a Water Rail jerked along the bank.

 

[Jack Harrison]

You can get almost anywhere:

http://www.tides4fishing.com/uk/england

and then select your location. You get a graphical display if required.

I had merely picked Hunstanton as the tide times all the way along the coast as far as Wells are more or less the same. Only beyond Wells do the times become significantly later. And I can't in any case understand why exact time is so crucial. Tide height follows (approximately) a sine wave so high tide (for example) is NOT an instant but a period of maybe an hour.

Knowing the moon phase enables tide time to be worked out quite adequately — I make my tide estimates routinely by that method. I just worked it out in my head for today and I was within 30 minutes when I subsequently checked.

Jack

 

[Paul Eele]

Titchwell December 19th

Today’s highlights

Coues’s Arctic redpoll – 1 around visitor centre but mobile and elusive
Caspian gull – 1st winter on fresh marsh from ca 14:30
Yellow legged gull – adult in fresh marsh roost
Marsh harrier – 25 in roost
Hen harrier – 2 ringtail in roost

White fronted goose - 9 with greylags on grazing marsh from Gypsy Lane this afternoon.

Paul

 

[Paul Woolnough]

Fudged

Apparently the hybrid female has a habit of keeping her tail down making the white vent look smaller whereas the pure(r) female keeps her tail cocked showing off a large pure white vent, this is useful at distance. Other than that the head shape is obviously far better, bill looks good and lacks the white flecking along the sides of the breast.

Thanks for an informative thread on the Bure ducks
I saw the hybrid female last January at Cockshoot Broad. I noted the smallness of the white vent and that the head shape was "wrong". A back-crossed bird, with the majority of genes, not all, being ferruginous.

 

[firstreesjohn]

Time and tide height for no man (?)

(1) You can get almost anywhere:

(2) You get a graphical display if required.

(3) I can't in any case understand why exact time is so crucial.

Again, thanks for your help.

The answers:

(1) As I said, the location I need is not there. I did search for it.

(2) Compare the ‘tide height indicator’ in #14480 to see why this is not so immediately user-friendly.

(3) When the tide can come in faster than a horse can gallop at the location I seek, that’s why the timing is of such overweening importance. I always build in a safety factor, in any case.

 

[Nick Moran]

Swimming against the tide

(3) When the tide can come in faster than a horse can gallop at the location I seek, that’s why the timing is of such overweening importance. I always build in a safety factor, in any case.

The only time I've been caught out using EasyTide (which, like Jack's website, doesn't cover the exact location I want... which, like yours, is a location where the tide comes in faster than a horse can gallop) was when I cut it too fine i.e., trying to come off <2.5 hrs before HW (which I blame on a November Ring Ouzel, bl**y flighty thing that it was!). Not sure how an even more accurate prediction really helps but each to his/her own.

ps I prefer the EasyTide graphs (ie not a sine wave).

 

[Nick Moran]

I think most (if not all) observers are content that it's not a first generation hybrid, however the question remains as to whether or not it is a backcrossed hybrid (and I'm assuming the Ranworth bird is the same bird as the Cockshoot Broad bird - I think it's been seen with its young hybrid at both sites and they're very close as the duck flies). Personally I couldn't see anything wrong with the belly pattern, though I only got a brief view of that. The head shape did concern me - for most of the time I watched it (especially last winter) it looked worryingly rounded, although every now and then it showed a classic Ferruginous shape. Whether or not its within normal variation for pure Ferruginous Duck I'm not 100% certain - I suspect it may be but then again a second or subsequent generation hybrid would, potentially, be extremely difficult to separate from a pure bird. For me with birds like this, unless it shows features that clearly cannot exist on a pure bird then the common sense approach seems to be to treat it as pure whilst recognising that the possibility of it not being totally pure cannot be eliminated.

I suspect that most of us don't have all that much experience of female Ferruginous Ducks in their normal range. I wouldn't be surprised if we'd find they were rather more variable than the books and some ID articles would have us believe.

As for the bird's origin, there have been plastic-ringed and/or very tame birds in the Broads in recent years, and as this bird was oversummering last year at least (not sure if it was seen this summer and bred locally or not, but I expect so) there has to be some doubt hanging over it. If it were proved to be a backcrossed hybrid (and backcrossed with Ferruginous Duck) then that would probably damage its credentials. Personally I think that a shadow of doubt hangs over any record of Ferruginous Duck in the UK, but that undoubtedly many of them are wild - it's just impossible to know for any given record. Oversummering doesn't help this one's case but it doesn't prove anything. As you say, the Broads are as good a place as any for wild ones.

Whatever it is and wherever it came from, I couldn't find it at Ranworth yesterday afternoon, nor the Ring-necked Duck. Fantastic numbers of dabbling duck there though (especially Teal), plus 2 Goosander and overhead Bewick's Swans. Don't remember it being that good last time I went there.

Thanks Dave

A couple of friends were at Ranworth Sunday afternoon and saw the 'decent' female. Like me, they saw no 'questionable' features; unlike me, they went with a clearer idea of the complicated situation regarding these birds in recent winters, and still couldn't see any issues. Grippingly, they managed the Ring-necked Duck too!

To reiterate, I couldn't see a problem with the bill or head shape with the bird I found (or refound or whatever) on Saturday. Although the last time I saw Ferruginous Ducks (in large numbers) was in Gujarat last Nov/Dec and I didn't get much chance to scrutinise them, the species was a regular winter visitor to the Emirates so I had a fair crack at them 2004-09. I would put the Ranworth female I saw comfortably within the normal range of variation for the species.

The female in your photos - the one associating with a pretty obvious 'Pochardy' hybrid - definitely shows a not-quite-right head shape in some shots, and the bill looks a bit 'Pochardy' too. This wasn't the case with the bird present on Saturday - only wish I'd had my camera!

Finally - and I realise this is circumstantial - Saturday's bird was as furtive as they come. Likewise on Sunday, according to my friends. No posing around in the open whatsoever (despite plenty of Tufties and Pochards around to egg it on).

Looks like a return visit (or 8) might be on the cards!

Cheers
Nick

 

[Peter Dolton]

Two birds were present today. Both, to start with, along the channel that goes away from the centre rather than the main broad itself. They were together some of the time but for most of the time I could see them they were apart.
One bird looked the real thing with pure white vent and belly patch with sharp edges,headshape Ok. Light and distance made it difficult to make out bill pattern enough to be useful. The other bird had fleckings of white, head shape not as expected and white on vent only occasionally seen and then not very clear.
Interestingly when a boat came along the channel towards the centre it started to push the ducks in front of it. The 'real' one quickly swam towards the bank and then dived and then appeared near the bank and behind the boat before slipping into the bankside veg. The other kept with a group of tufteds in front of the boat before taking flight with them and flying into Malthouse Broad.

 

[Happisbirder]

Thanks for this, Nick.

Unfortunately, I’d already ascertained that this site does not give what it calls ‘enhanced predictions’ (with the easy-on-the-eye tidal graph that I was seeking) for the ‘port’ for which I usually require this info.

Anyone else know of a better site ?

John - how does this online tide table from Aunty Beeb suit your needs? The info is supplied by the UK Hydrographic Office...

James

 

[ben_lewis]

Bit of an arrival of geese at Cantley over the past few days.
I had 62 Taiga Beans, 600+ (!) White fronts and 19 Tundra Bean Geese at Buckenham this morning as well as a superb male Hen Harrier, 460 Pinkies and 1450 Wigeon.
A nice mornings 'work'

 

[O.Reville1989]

Bit of an arrival of geese at Cantley over the past few days.
I had 62 Taiga Beans, 600+ (!) White fronts and 19 Tundra Bean Geese at Buckenham this morning as well as a superb male Hen Harrier, 460 Pinkies and 1450 Wigeon.
A nice mornings 'work'

All present this afternoon as well as a Cream Crown Marsh harrier and adult Peregrine, minus the male Hen Harrier.