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Old designs, worth it? (1 Viewer)

jcbouget said:
... the vignetted areas shown in the document above are not directly related to the nature of the glass, but is the sign of a wrong design.

... So, not being sure, I would correct you : evenly illuminated exit pupil is what to look for in porros.

Jean-Charles

Are there examples on the market of evenly illuminated exit pupils resulting from the use of low cost crown glass (i.e., with porros)? If so, I stand corrected, and appreciate being so advised. If not, we are confronting a hypothetical distinction without a practical difference.

-elkcub
 
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Leif said:
Manufacturers do get it wrong, even the best. I have noticed that Leica describe the ED glass in the APO Telvid scopes as Flouride glass and Flourite. The two are quite different beasties.

In the electronics and software industry the people who write the documentation are usually technical authors, rather than techies, hence errors are not uncommon. Alas documentation does not always get checked by the techies. I'm sure the consumer optics industry is no different.

Leif

Okay, consider me surprised. :eek!:
 
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The only real advancements in the last decade or two are what? Coatings and stabilization? The basic design and application of binoculars has been close to perfection for quite some time now, and as many will attest, some of the older glass is still marvelous to look through.

You don't need the latest Swaro SLs, Zeiss FLs or Ultravids to have awesome image quality. Just bragging rights, IMO.
 
elkcub said:
Are there examples on the market of evenly illuminated exit pupils resulting from the use of low cost crown glass (i.e., with porros)? If so, I stand corrected, and appreciate being so advised. If not, we are confronting a hypothetical distinction without a practical difference.

-elkcub
Elkcub,

I don’t know whether such a binocular exists, but I know that the shadowed areas of the exit pupil are obvious in some binoculars, and small in others.
We can often read articles suggesting that BK7 = poor binocular and BAK4 = good binocular, but the difference is not so clear-cut.
Here is good link (paragraph "Prism index") :
http://fantao.home.att.net/information.htm

Finally, we are indeed confronting a hypothetical distinction without a practical difference, because, as said by Walter above and Bill in another thread, there are other optical properties, including coatings and internal vignetting, which have more effect on image quality than the type of prisms. So, I think we shouldn’t worry about the BK7/BAK4 or square exit pupil issue.

Jean-Charles
 
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xenophobe said:
The only real advancements in the last decade or two are what? Coatings and stabilization? The basic design and application of binoculars has been close to perfection for quite some time now, and as many will attest, some of the older glass is still marvelous to look through.

You don't need the latest Swaro SLs, Zeiss FLs or Ultravids to have awesome image quality. Just bragging rights, IMO.

The biggest advances have been in roof prisms glasses, especially the mid-price ones, which have improved by leaps and bounds. (Probably because manufacturers rather sadly no longer consider porros to be worthy of the best technology.) The top glass has become significantly lighter - e.g. Swaro EL versus SLC - and has seen small improvements in the optics i.e. fancy dielectric coatings have appeared - e.g. Swarobright.

Leif
 
jcbouget said:
Elkcub,

I don’t know whether such a binocular exists, but I know that the shadowed areas of the exit pupil are obvious in some binoculars, and small in others.
We can often read articles suggesting that BK7 = poor binocular and BAK4 = good binocular, but the difference is not so clear-cut.
Here is good link (paragraph "Prism index") :
http://fantao.home.att.net/information.htm

Finally, we are indeed confronting a hypothetical distinction without a practical difference, because, as said by Walter above and Bill in another thread, there are other optical properties, including coatings and internal vignetting, which have more effect on image quality than the type of prisms. So, I think we shouldn’t worry about the BK7/BAK4 or square exit pupil issue.

Jean-Charles


Jean-Charles,

I never saw square exit pupils at top class binocs, neither today's nor from the 1960ies (Hertel&Reuss or Beck, which were much more expensive than today's binocs relative to the purchasing power in those days). Only once I saw it with a STEINER 7x50 Sailing from the 1980ies. But STEINER is a different league. I wouldn't rate them explicitly high class (in optics!), even if they are manufactoring nice binoculars.

Walter
 
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jcbouget said:
Elkcub,

I don’t know whether such a binocular exists, but I know that the shadowed areas of the exit pupil are obvious in some binoculars, and small in others.
We can often read articles suggesting that BK7 = poor binocular and BAK4 = good binocular, but the difference is not so clear-cut.
Here is good link (paragraph "Prism index") :
http://fantao.home.att.net/information.htm

Finally, we are indeed confronting a hypothetical distinction without a practical difference, because, as said by Walter above and Bill in another thread, there are other optical properties, including coatings and internal vignetting, which have more effect on image quality than the type of prisms. So, I think we shouldn’t worry about the BK7/BAK4 or square exit pupil issue.

Jean-Charles

Jean-Charles,

Going back to the original post, I guess the question is whether or not old binocs are worth having by today's standards. In evaluating old(er) binoculars one doesn't always know what kind of glass was used, so a round, bright, evenly lit exit pupil is certainly one of the major things to look for. No argument there. However, if there were specs available, BAK4 would be a positive and BK7 a negative, at least to me. Other porro glass I know not.

The hypothetical you mentioned previously, however, suggesting that square vignetting results from the design rather than the glass itself is an interesting side issue (though I'm not qualified to evaluate this technically). It reminded me of a lecture I heard by a well-known tribologist who demonstrated to the audience's satisfaction that (1) we change the oil in our cars far to often, and (2) we could use the oil even 10 times longer if his formula additive were used. The professor proved this via mechanical transmission endurance studies — with graduate students doing all the work, of course. Unfortunely, no oil company seems to have purchased the manufacturing rights to his formula, and I'm forever plagued with what might have been. On a practical level I still follow the manufacturer's recommendations. ;)

Merci pour les mémoires.
Respectfully,
Elkcub
 
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elkcub said:
However, if there were specs available, BAK4 would be a positive and BK7 a negative, at least to me. Other porro glass I know not.Elkcub

I would like to comment on Bk7 vs Bak4, and since I haven't made anyone angry in . . . hours, I thought I would give it a try. Please keep in mind that it is easier to get the consumers attention by drawing little gray boxes than by graphing color transmission. I deal with people, every day, to whom turning a focus knob is an exercise in terror.

The following is from a post at another site:


BAK4 is a better glass type than Bk7 if, and only if, the product was designed around it. Optical engineering is not mix and match. In addition, the difference in the two glass types is usually blown way out of proportion.

1) During the day, our eyes are stopped to the point that the grayed area doesn’t even go into our eyes. Thus . . . no big deal.

2) At night, when our eyes open up, we are more sensitive off-axis. That means we usually don’t notice the difference anyway.

3) Most amateur astronomers don’t realize that the majority of the telescopes they use—and are happy with—allow a light drop-off of up to 40% at the edge of the field of view. They don’t know this, are happy as a clam, but complain about Bk7 prisms.

BAK4’s real power—IMHO—comes from its tightness in handling color, thus improving contrast and resolution and not merely in light throughput. Even so, the best prisms in the world--to be ultimately effective--must be designed as part of a system. One size does not fit all.

I hope that my words have not offended anyone and that they will be taken in the spirit intended. And, as always, if someone feels I have made an error. PLEASE point it out to me and the group.

Kindest Regards,

Bill
 
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Leif said:
The biggest advances have been in roof prisms glasses, especially the mid-price ones, which have improved by leaps and bounds. (Probably because manufacturers rather sadly no longer consider porros to be worthy of the best technology.) The top glass has become significantly lighter - e.g. Swaro EL versus SLC - and has seen small improvements in the optics i.e. fancy dielectric coatings have appeared - e.g. Swarobright.

Leif

I was commenting more on the high end of glass. Good roof prisim binoculars have been around for decades.... examples... Leitz 10x40b, Zeiss 10x40b Classic. I know the early variants suffer a little (when compared to modern binoculars) because they lacked phase correction, but their design is still solid and their quality is exceptional even today. I think the sale prices of some of these 30+ year old bins proves that.

I've compared my late model 10x40b Classics to a pair of 10x Swaro SLs and to an early model 10x40b Classic and prefered my Zeiss without a second thought. Clearly it is a vintage design, yet it still performs as well as many of the modern designs available and was only slightly nicer than the early model without the P* coating...

I don't really consider changing chasis material from aluminum to magnesium much of an advancement, but more of a simple refinement. When there isn't much left to improve upon, there's gotta be a gimmick for the new line to stand on, IMO.

What real innovations have been made in the last decade or two then?

When you discount the different coatings, is the Zeiss Victory FL really that significant of a visual improvement over the design of their previous lines? Is the Utravid that much nicer than a Trinovid? Is the SLC that much of an improvement over the SL? Personally I see it as just another reason to upgrade from the 2005 model to the 2006 model, and hardly substantial when you compare the previous top-of-the-line model to the newest.

So are all these newest binoculars better because of actual design improvements, or mostly because of coating improvements? I would be willing to bet on the latter.
 
The old Pentax Asahi's are good.....there are plenty better older binos though. The yellowish coatings which you refer to as anti-glare coatings actually have the opposite effect. These coatings actually reflect light back at the eye while viewing, especially when bringing the binocular to the eyes to acquire a target. This is has the effect of closing down the pupil, which may enhance perceived sharpness or depth of field, but it can be uncomfortable, blinding even. For nightime viewing this is not a problem as there is little light to reflect. The rest of the build and design is good though.

Bk 7 prisms are virtually a non factor when using such as 7x50 or 8x40 binos in broad daylight. The dimmed area is not entering the pupil, but the stray light may reduce contrast some. Ive got an excellent pair of old porro 7x50's with Bk 7 prisms.


Are there examples on the market of evenly illuminated exit pupils resulting from the use of low cost crown glass (i.e., with porros)?

No. Bk 7 prisms will always produce a diamond pattern with light falloff. This cant be defeated with oversized prisms of Bk 7 glass.


The majority of binoculars more than 20 years old will have BAK 7 prisms. BAK 4 has only become cheap enough and plentiful enough in the last decade or so to filter down to the non-premium brand models.

This is incorrect also. Its the same now as it was then. Cheap binos used the cheaper Bk 7 and more expensive ones used the more expensive Bak4. Ive got B&L porros from the 50s that have Bak 4 prisms. And I know that Zeiss and B&L were using it before WW2.

Pyrex is also a borosilicate glass. It has properties similar to the Bk7 glass, it is very chemical and heat resistant. Bk7's low expansion under heat and resistance to chemicals is useful as the outer element in binocular and telescope achromat objectives. Indeed it is nearly universally used as the outer lens in achromats, though others are used as well as various ED and Flourite. BTW, Bk 7 glass is a low dispersion glass.....EDish. Pyrex is also used as the glass of choice for telescope mirrors, because of these properties, especially the low thermal expansion.

I agree with most here that coatings over the last 30 years have shown the most significant improvements, others being the use of ED and Calcium Flourite and Aspheric lenses. Come to think of it, I dont know of a binocular that has Flourite lenses, scopes and camera lenses do though.


BAK4 is a better glass type than Bk7 if, and only if, the product was designed around it. Optical engineering is not mix and match.

This is almost correct. Bak 4 glass is neither better or worse than Bk 7 only different with differing properties that can be used to good effect in a lens system. But Bak 4 is a much better choice for prisms, invariably. A bino with Bk7 prisms can be better overall than a bino with Bak 4 prisms, some older binos with Bk 7 prisms are better overall than newer binoculars with Bak 4 prisms and modern coatings, even on just an optical performance level.


I don't really consider changing chasis material from aluminum to magnesium much of an advancement, but more of a simple refinement.

Magnesium has been used as chasis material for binos since the WW2, although not universally. Aluminum was more predominant and some steel and brass. Mostly brass and steel were used pre WW2 with some aluminum.
 
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[QUOTE=orbitaljump

Come to think of it, I dont know of a binocular that has Flourite lenses, scopes and camera lenses do though.

AFAIK, the Takahashi 22x60 binocular has Calcium Fluorite lenses, the 82mm Kowa Highlander too.
 
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