Svensson's Copper Underwing (2 Viewers)

[MikeWall]

Because?

Because, as I say above, of the (admittedly small sample I checked) there was no consistency in upperwing features between confirmed (with a scalpel) berbera and pyramidea. Some had long 'daggers', some were all equal - basically if you were given the ten moths and told to select which were which from upperwing characteristics you wouldn't have been able to. It might be a feature which is a pointer to one or the other, like the hindwing (although this was a stronger indicator), but I wouldn't take either as definitive on their own.

Of course, you don't have to take my word for it (sure you won't), but the only way it's going to be proved one way or the other is to perform Harry's large scale gen.det.

Personally, I'm happier with a structural identification feature published in an established peer-reviewed journal than depending on a set of subjective, variable coloration differences which I've proved to my own satisfaction don't hold true, but that's just my preference....

 

[Jamie D]

Hi,

the paper Mike mentions covering these ID features can be found on the internet in the yahoo ukmoths group in the files area. It is in the directory 00_misc and is called cu.pdf. Here it goes through everything Harry mentioned including specimens from all over the UK and also museum specimens. The directory the file is in is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ukmoths/files/00_Misc/ but you may need to join if you are already not a member. I have not posted the file as I don't want to get into any copyright issues

Regards,
Jamie

 

[harry eales]

Hi,

the paper Mike mentions covering these ID features can be found on the internet in the yahoo ukmoths group in the files area. It is in the directory 00_misc and is called cu.pdf. Here it goes through everything Harry mentioned including specimens from all over the UK and also museum specimens. The directory the file is in is http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ukmoths/files/00_Misc/ but you may need to join if you are already not a member. I have not posted the file as I don't want to get into any copyright issues

Regards,
Jamie

Thanks for the link Jamie, I haven't been able to find it elsewhere on the WWW. Looks like I'll have to join Yahoo Groups to read it.

Harry

 

[Andrew S]

Here's a specimen with white tips to the palps, with a blurry pic of the upperwings.

Not sure this is really helpful as it appears that the scales have worn off the lower segments of the palps, so this may be a false positive for SCU?

Daggers look even on top.

Will have to study that paper in a bit more detail...

 

[jhiggott]

Here's a specimen with white tips to the palps, with a blurry pic of the upperwings.

Not sure this is really helpful as it appears that the scales have worn off the lower segments of the palps, so this may be a false positive for SCU?

Daggers look even on top.

Will have to study that paper in a bit more detail...

I've just caught up with this discussion. In addition to the PDF reference the palp feature has been illustrated in a note by myself in a recent issue of Atropos. The associated photos are on my website at:

http://jeffhiggott.topcities.com/lepidoptera/systematic_list/Noctuidae/comp_2297_2298.html

It has been suggested that the palp feature is not a 100% consistent feature and I've not done a series of dissections to prove it. I have however found the palp colour to be consistent with the underwing colour on the specimens trapped in my garden (VC25 - East Suffolk) over the past couple of seasons. Infer from that what you will!

Jeff