Which one to upgrade first, binoculars or spotting scope? (2 Viewers)

[Passakorn]

I come to the point that I would like to upgrade my equipments. Now I have Vortex Viper 8x42 and Nikon Monarch 7 8x30 binoculars and a duct-taped Nikon ED50 spotting scope with a zoom lens (also a Celestron C6 with a Badder 8-24EP if that is counted as a spotting scope). I like to use them for both IDing and observing birds behaviors. The locations are pretty much anywhere, city, garden, parks, shores, forest. The ratio of usage of binoculars vs spotting scope is probably 10-20 to 1. I carry binoculars with me almost everyday but take a scope and a tripod only when I travel, may be around once a month. Although I use a scope much less than a binoculars, looking through a scope always amazes me when seeing such a detail for a long distance bird. I also do casual bird photography.

My latest setup that works very well is the 8x42 Viper and ED50 on a small tripod and olympus EM1iii with panasonic 100-400 zoom on my shoulder. I use binoculars to spot the birds then use ED50 for a close up look and camera and zoom if I would like to take photos. I can spend 4-5 hours walking around rather flat park with this setup very comfortably. I try the sony with 200-600 and it is getting much more difficult to move around with the size and weight. I am thinking of getting bigger tripod with longer plate then I can mount both spotting scope and camera setup to do video.

With the way I use my equipment, I am wondering if experience users could suggest which direction I should go if I would like to spend around $2000 to upgrade either binoculars or a spotting scope? I am not sure with this 2K budget, would upgrading binoculars or spotting scope (also which models) will give me a better “wow factor”?

Thank you so much,

Passakorn

 

[Maljunulo]

Binoculars first.

They are a less specialized optic, and presumably will be used more frequently.

Buy the best you can for your 2K, and even consider a used version of a top-of-the-line glass.

 

[wllmspd]

You’ve got a good set of optics, some more compact than others. Which area is most lacking? Wanting to do spotting and imaging, needs two heavy optics. I know a chap who uses wheely suitcase he pulls behind him. So he can have a big camera lens and 80m spotter. Think he uses a carbon tripod so he keeps the weight down.
Have a look through some higher end binoculars, see if that are noticeably more wow. Digiscoping might remove the need for a camera lens, but I’ve never tried it, so can’t say how it might compare to your existing setup. The C6 and Baader will give you decent high powers that you’d need to spend a bit to improve (if the higher power views are what you tend to want to use).
It might be that you choose the best kit combination for the location, if you need the longest reach or rather want lighter as things won’t be far away. The new Swarovski ATC looks interesting, very compact and light and upto 40x very wide field zoom, this could replace the ED50, though there maybe times you need more magnification.
When do you feel you current set up lacking and how often, not worth spending lots for only occasional benefit.

Peter

 

[edwincjones]

What are your interests, and which would benefit these interests best?

edj

 

[Passakorn]

Thank you very much for the comments.

It is a bit hard to confine the interest for me. I come a long way from landscape photography and has been serious about bird photography during the Covid-19 time and at the same time got interested in feeding bird and do birding (more like a watching them doing things rather than going all the way to see a specific bird). For bird photography, I come to the point to realize that unless I spend a lot of time and money for a prime super telephoto lens or terrific zoom, and hiding myself in a hides for several hours a day, it will be unlikely to get great close up birds photos (Except around home or city birds). I think I am a casual birder/watcher but I could spend the whole day or even several days walking/hiking in the park with binoculars/spotting scope/camera trying to find birds.

I could see some limitation of the Viper such as rather high CA and may not be totally sharp. I think the monarch7 8x30 is bit sharper and has less CA. I do like the ED50 a lot due to its image quality, size and weight but do find it lack of higher power when birds are far. My camera setup is ok, just would like to do more video but then will need a bigger tripod.

Location wise, many sites I visit are tropical national parks with rather dense forest and bird can be a bit far (at least 20-30m away or more). I can still ID them with binoculars but a spotting scope provides a much more pleasant viewing as I can observe birds behavior closely. I also visit shorelines where most birds are rather far away then a spotting scope is use most of the time. The rest are just wandering around park in town.

So I think I am looking for better image quality for both binoculars and spotting scope. Not sure if I should invest the 2K on only one item or should I split (like getting Nikon HG 8x42 and Nikon Fieldscope ED 78/82 or Monarch ED 82 all together)?

My only worry is that will I be satisfied with the improved image quality from any upgrade with the 2K investment? I cannot try equipment here where I live so it will be buying based on reviews/comment which really help me a lot, especially here at birdforum.

Thank you so much,

Passakorn

 

[Maljunulo]

My only worry is that will I be satisfied with the improved image quality from any upgrade with the 2K investment? I cannot try equipment here where I live so it will be buying based on reviews/comment which really help me a lot, especially here at birdforum.

Thank you so much,

Passakorn

Only you know, or can know, the answer to that question.

My approach, whenever “budget limited” is to buy the best single item I can afford at the time. Then use and enjoy it to the fullness of its capabilities. Delight in what it shows you that you would never see without it, rather than wishing you had something different or additional.

There is so much that we can never see and appreciate with our “bare eyeballs” that one can spend a whole lifetime with just a binocular, and see something new every day.

I do not envy you your dilemma, but I do think many here make the mistake of trying to do too many (very expensive) things, when they really could and should leave some of those things to others, and just enjoy the ones they can truly afford.

Good luck in your quest. (see lines two and three below)

 

[Richard D]

One thing to bear in mind is weight - whilst the Nikon 82's aren't terribly heavy to carry you will need a fairly substantial tripod, I've got the ED50 and an Optolyth 80mm scope (adequate quality and bright - but not a patch on the Nikons), but the scope I almost exclusively use is the Nikon Fieldscope IIIA ED - much brighter than the nice ED50, heavier but still portable and works okay on a relatively lightweight tripod. You can pick one up used with a second eyepiece for not that much.

 

[mskb]

You mention birding and photographing in dense forests with interests in carrying both birding and photography equipment. It seems to me you are better off considering an upgrade with an improved field of view, brightness, and viewing comfort within the constraints posed by the size and weight.

- If you find yourself wanting to do more and more long distance and close up viewing (if the tropical forests you go to allow), I can recommend first trying out 60-65mm spotters in combination with your existing 8x42 / 8x30 binoculars. These scopes can be pushed comfortably up to 35X and with a good loss in brightness, up to 40X. I would definitely not recommend going to higher 80mm scopes because of the weight. The 60-65mm would cost around $900-1.2K. As you try, if you decide that these are too similar to your ED50, then perhaps you already have a great kit that suits your needs in the scope department.
- You already have two good binoculars (8X42 Viper HD and 8x30 M7). However, you also mention that you carry binoculars more often than a scope. (A) If you decide a scope upgrade is not worth your while, something like the Swarovski SLC or its equivalent in other brands (given that the SLC is discontinued; I wish the SLC were still produced.) would be a strong recommendation from me. I do not have any experience with the recently released Zeiss SFL, that could be a contender. (B) If you do decide to upgrade your scope, I am not sure what to recommend in the $500-$1000 range. The Opticron Aurora gets rave reviews, it might be worth a try. The Zeiss conquest and MHG are equivalent but I will leave it to you to decide if the upgrade over an M7 / Viper HD is significant enough for you. The Meopta Meostar is excellent, but may be bulky. The Kowa Genesis 8.5x43 is heavy and has a restrictive FoV. The genesis 8x33 may be worth a look, but it is still not a 42 diameter objective for improved brightness and resolution. The Tract Torics and Vortex Razors in 8X also have restrictive FoVs. If you look back into other threads, you might get some answers but certainly keep the weight, FoV, brightness and other performance characteristics in mind for the money that you would be spending.

I started off in photography as well, I now carry an ~8x binoculars and ~65mm scope all the time. When I do wish for some photography, I am able to very comfortably carry an m43. Occasionally, I take a full frame with a 24-105 and a Tamron 150-600 G2, this lens being the most heaviest.

Cheers, and good luck !

 

[Richard D]

If you go with a used Fieldscope III ED for your 60mm scope you should be able to get one in good condition with case and fixed eyepiece for under 600 USD, will also be able to use your existing ED50 eyepiece. Yes it's not the latest scope but it's not that far behind the performance of an aATS 65 and would give you a substantial amount towards a better pair of binoculars, particulaarly if you again go used.

 

[fazalmajid]

I'd upgrade the binoculars if I were you. Check the binocular bargains thread, for instance there were some really nice specials recently at Dvor.com on the Zeiss Victory SFL.

Now, you run the risk of the ED50 failing altogether on you, as those Nikons don't have the best build quality. Based on your comments about weight, I don't think a 80+mm spotting scope is for you, and the only real upgrade path from an ED50 with a noticeable jump in quality would be a 65mm Swarovski, 50mm Kowa TSN-553/554, 65mm Leica APO-Televid, which would exhaust your upgrade budget. Possibly an Opticron MM4 50mm, but that would be more of a sidegrade than an upgrade. Richard's suggestion of the Fieldscope III ED is an excellent idea, you would salvage part of your Nikon investment and get top-notch optics, albeit at a weight premium for its class.

You're set for your camera, but one upgrade that may improve your experience is a dot-sight. Olympus makes one, and Nikon used to. Makes targeting much easier.

 

[Maljunulo]

If you go with a used Fieldscope III ED for your 60mm scope you should be able to get one in good condition with case and fixed eyepiece for under 600 USD, will also be able to use your existing ED50 eyepiece. Yes it's not the latest scope but it's not that far behind the performance of an aATS 65 and would give you a substantial amount towards a better pair of binoculars, particulaarly if you again go used.

That’s very interesting, since I recall paying around $1,000 US for mine new.

The scope has held its value better than the US dollar.

 

[Richard D]

That’s very interesting, since I recall paying around $1,000 US for mine new.

The scope has held its value better than the US dollar.

$600 is probably top for ED IIIA boxed in near new condition with carry case, stay on case and eyepiece. Sometimes a fair bit cheaper from Japanese ebay sellers (no idea what import taxes are like in the US though - here that adds a lot). The EDII's and non-ED models go for a lot less. They're not the lightest scope in their class but they're built like tanks and have a strong reputation for being pretty much lemon free so they're a pretty safe used purchase and you'd have to pay a lot more to get much better performance.

 

[Passakorn]

Thank you so much for all of the comments.

I come to the conclusion that I will upgrade the binoculars first as I use them much more often than the scope. I will look for a fieldscope as it seems to be a good option for a temporary upgrade of the ED50.

Today I try a setup with M7 8x30 with Olympus EM1iii and a panasonic 100-400 lens and did not bring the ED50 scope. The condition is very cloudy (rain just stops) and rather dense wood in the park (light meter from the camera is around 1/125s at F6.3 for ISO1600 that start to have some hunting in AF.). Most of the time it went great except one time when the bird is about 60-100m away and it has a sky as a background that I cannot tell what bird it is with the M7. So I guess I still need the scope occasionally for a far distant bird even in a confined space like dense woods where visibility may be limited.
What surprises me is that I don't feel the 8x30 is dark at all in this environment. They seem to be just fine. I do feel that it is more prone to a shaking than the 8x42 and eyes placement is more sensitive. I am not sure if it is just my thought or if there is a reason for that.

This comes to the question that can the 8x30/32 replace the 8x42s completely? I think 100-200 g weight reduction is nice but not mandatory for me.

For binoculars wise. Here are all options I can get locally.

Swarovski
NL Pure 8x42 (Green) $2740
NL Pure 8x32 (Orange) $2380
EL 8.5x42 $2400 (more expensive than BHP)
SLC 8x42 $1600
CL 8x30 $1100

Zeiss
HT 8x42 $1935
FL 7x42 $1685
Conquest HD 8x42 $1010
Conquest HD 8x32 $860

Nikon MHG is not sold in Thailand. Although I can import there is a risk of an unclear warranty from the seller.

Surprisingly, except for the EL 8.5x42 most are cheaper than in the US. The downside is that all sold here come with only 10 years warranty instead of a lifetime as in the US.

What would be the best option for my need? I know that I cap it at $2000 but no need to spend all of them. I am aiming at the SLC 8x42 but not sure if 3.2m close focus would be a problem or not. Any (bad) thing I should be aware of for the SLC? Should I consider the HT 8x42 at all?

I see the price for the EL8.5x42 is around $2100 at most places. But I find a few places where the price goes down to around $1500-1,600 for new ones. Is it too good to be true? Also, do the EL 8.5x42 has some variants for their entire long production period?

Thank you so much for all of your suggestions,

Passakorn

 

[edwincjones]

...............So I think I am looking for better image quality for both binoculars and spotting scope. Not sure if I should invest the 2K on only one item or should I split (like getting Nikon HG 8x42 and Nikon Fieldscope ED 78/82 or Monarch ED 82 all together)?

My only worry is that will I be satisfied with the improved image quality from any upgrade with the 2K investment..........

my concern-- would I be satisfied with dividing the money and getting both, vs getting a better one now and the other sometime later

edj

 

[Richard D]

Thank you so much for all of the comments.

I come to the conclusion that I will upgrade the binoculars first as I use them much more often than the scope. I will look for a fieldscope as it seems to be a good option for a temporary upgrade of the ED50.

Today I try a setup with M7 8x30 with Olympus EM1iii and a panasonic 100-400 lens and did not bring the ED50 scope. The condition is very cloudy (rain just stops) and rather dense wood in the park (light meter from the camera is around 1/125s at F6.3 for ISO1600 that start to have some hunting in AF.). Most of the time it went great except one time when the bird is about 60-100m away and it has a sky as a background that I cannot tell what bird it is with the M7. So I guess I still need the scope occasionally for a far distant bird even in a confined space like dense woods where visibility may be limited.
What surprises me is that I don't feel the 8x30 is dark at all in this environment. They seem to be just fine. I do feel that it is more prone to a shaking than the 8x42 and eyes placement is more sensitive. I am not sure if it is just my thought or if there is a reason for that.

This come to the question that can the 8x30/32 replace the 8x42s completely. I think 100-200 g weight reduction is nice but not mandatory for me.

For binoculars wise. Here are all options I can get locally.

Swarovski
NL Pure 8x42 (Green) $2740
NL Pure 8x32 (Orange) $2380
EL 8.5x42 $2400 (more expensive than BHP)
SLC 8x42 $1600
CL 8x30 $1100

Zeiss
HT 8x42 $1935
FL 7x42 $1685
Conquest HD 8x42 $1010
Conquest HD 8x32 $860

Nikon MHG is not sold in Thailand. Although I can import there is a risk of an unclear warranty from the seller.

Surprisingly, except for the EL 8.5x42 most are cheaper than in the US. The downside is that all sold here come with only 10 years warranty instead of a lifetime as in the US.

What would be the best option for my need? I know that I cap it at $2000 but no need to spend all of them. I am aiming at the SLC 8x42 but not sure if 3.2m close focus would be a problem or not. Any (bad) thing I should be aware of for the SLC? Should I consider the HT 8x42 at all?

I see the price for the EL8.5x42 is around $2100 at most places. But I find a few places where the price goes down to around $1500-1,600 for new ones. Is it too good to be true? Also, do the EL 48.5x42 has some variants for their entire long production period?

Thank you so much for all of your suggestions,

Passakorn

It's 10 years warranty in the UK too - I'm not sure what the current US warranty prices are.

The SLC 8x42 are excellent binoculars, but recently discontinued (still available under the 'Kahles' brand). They're not flatfield, but edge curvature is very well controlled. Focusing is slower than some binoculars - personally I like it but opinions differ. Personally I don't find 3m close focus an issue for birds, insect watchers might. I've got a couple of pairs from the SLC range and a couple from the EL range (not those particular models though) and whilst they're different I would never describe SLCs as being inferior to ELs.

With the EL 8.5 x 42 there have been 3 basic versions, the original and an update (2009 ish) and the Fieldpro version (2021?). Optically there's not a real difference between the newer ones with fieldpro lugs and the the post 2009 model with traditional lugs - if you can save a bit by getting the non-fieldpro version personally that would be my choice.

The Conquests and the CL Companion are good value, but wouldn't be my first choices.

 

[Maljunulo]

- if you can save a bit by getting the non-fieldpro version personally that would be my choice.

This.

 

[Passakorn]

I just notice that Nikon EDG is back. Should I also consider EDG8x42 within this group as well? Not sure why there are many new one on ebay within $1500.

 

[Paultricounty]

I come to the point that I would like to upgrade my equipments. Now I have Vortex Viper 8x42 and Nikon Monarch 7 8x30 binoculars and a duct-taped Nikon ED50 spotting scope with a zoom lens (also a Celestron C6 with a Badder 8-24EP if that is counted as a spotting scope). I like to use them for both IDing and observing birds behaviors. The locations are pretty much anywhere, city, garden, parks, shores, forest. The ratio of usage of binoculars vs spotting scope is probably 10-20 to 1. I carry binoculars with me almost everyday but take a scope and a tripod only when I travel, may be around once a month. Although I use a scope much less than a binoculars, looking through a scope always amazes me when seeing such a detail for a long distance bird. I also do casual bird photography.

My latest setup that works very well is the 8x42 Viper and ED50 on a small tripod and olympus EM1iii with panasonic 100-400 zoom on my shoulder. I use binoculars to spot the birds then use ED50 for a close up look and camera and zoom if I would like to take photos. I can spend 4-5 hours walking around rather flat park with this setup very comfortably. I try the sony with 200-600 and it is getting much more difficult to move around with the size and weight. I am thinking of getting bigger tripod with longer plate then I can mount both spotting scope and camera setup to do video.

With the way I use my equipment, I am wondering if experience users could suggest which direction I should go if I would like to spend around $2000 to upgrade either binoculars or a spotting scope? I am not sure with this 2K budget, would upgrading binoculars or spotting scope (also which models) will give me a better “wow factor”?

Thank you so much,

Passakorn

Now that your recognizing the optical pros and cons of your equipment , you now know what quality level you want.

First figure out which one you desire the most and which you may use the most, spotter or binoculars. Then buy the best quality you can afford, maybe even save up for a little while. You’ll never be sorry you bought good glass.

If it’s a nice reasonably light spotter , go 60-80mm. If binoculars move up to a $1000 range or nice higher level used glass here on BF. A nice 8 or 10x42 and keep your 30’s for a while.

Then enjoy whichever one you have and when ready go for the other.



Paul

 

[Maljunulo]

Then buy the best quality you can afford, maybe even save up for a little while. You’ll never be sorry you bought good glass.
Paul

Agree

 

[BKoh]

Besides the binos already recommended, consider the Canon IS 10x42L. Base optics are excellent, with the IS on they beat any non-IS unit.

Main worry is the short warranty, but users on BirdForum/Cloudy Nights have reported 20 years of service.

Batteries - Eneloops.
Weight - Shoulder Harness.

For non-IS, I can also suggest Swarovski EL FP 8x32 (used). These can be found around $1000 depending on the remaining warranty. Optically excellent, only the Zeiss SF and Swaro NL can be considered (slightly) better, at much higher cost.