UK Warblers (1 Viewer)

Hi DGRW,

First I would never claim for myself to be anything other than a moderately competent birder although I have been doing it for quite a while. I'll try to explain what I mean about the Garden and Wood Warblers not being confusion species but please dont take any of this as criticism of your skills.

It is not unusual to confuse species from two different warbler genus but, with some notable exceptions, it would usually result from poor views of the bird. To confuse a phylloscopus with a sylvia warbler would, again, probably be due to incomplete/brief/poor views of the birds. So what confuses me is how you came to the two possibilities that you did. For example,

- how did you rule out other phylloscopus species such as Willow Warbler and Chiffchaff?

- how did you rule out other sylvia species such as Whitethroat and Lesser Whitethroat?

Or to put it another way, for each of these two species, there are other species that are much closer in appearance than the one you have mentioned.

That being said I would say that even to the untrained eye, as a result of poor views, Garden Warbler and Wood Warbler are not confusion species.

Garden Warbler is a non-descript bird which is mainly greyish brown or brown colour with perhaps the feintest hint of olive in the plumage colour. It is like a browner version of a blackcap without the cap. The face is subtly marked without prominent eye-stripe or supercilium (there can be a short indistinct supercillium or the impression of pale crescents below and above the dark eye , the latter standing out in the relatively pale face) and they often show the peaked head shape of sylvia warblers. They can look smart sometimes but always in a non-descript, boring kind of way! Basically you do have to look pretty hard to find any features at all on a Garden Warbler!

Whereas Wood Warbler is a dynamite bird where the features leap out at you! Yellowish-green upperparts and bright contrasting white underparts except for the breast which can be bright yellow. The face pattern is very strong with a long, bright supercillium and a dark stripe through the eye. The wings are noticeably longer than Willow Warblers for example but Wood Warblers do still have a typical phylloscopus shape with a relatively smooth head profile and a small pointed bill.

The songs are also very different - a Wood Warbler's song is a beautiful shimmering, descending trill whereas a Garden Warbler's song is scratchy and chuntering.

I hope some of this was useful. And I am sure others will point out any mistakes in my descriptions.

Cheers,

DGRW said:

This is entirely my point though Bonsai; to the less trained eye - they are.

For the benefit of this unfocussed muppet; please define the main visual points of disimilarity taking into account my previous comments regarding light conditions or dull plumaged birds.

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There really is nothing better than learning the calls though, as for most of the year it will be your best bet for finding and for the id.

On migration it gets a bit harder with fleeting glimpses at coastal hotspots, this is where all your hard work learning the common ones during the year comes in. Then you don't need to know all the warblers, but you should be able to tell if the bird is something different and needs further investigation or not! If you have a camera it can also help to id a bird in the comfort of your living room with reference book to hand (p.s. they don't always prove easy to photograph though!)

Bonsaibirder said:

I'm not sure what you mean here - I don't think there are any circumstances under which these two species could be mistaken for one another. They are not even remotely similar.

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I also find it difficult to imagine mistaking a wood warbler for a garden warbler, or a reed warbler for a whitethroat. However the great thing about birdforum is that it is available to birders of all abilities and a thread about distinguishing wood from garden warblers is just as useful for some as a thread about distinguishing reed from olivaceous warblers.

It is easy for experienced birders to think that certain species are impossible to confuse but everyone has to start somewhere, and a thread like this is a great way for those with more experience to pass that experience on to others who are at the other end of the learning curve.

Spinning coin IS Wood Warbler

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So my bird, with a song similar to Blackcap, looking a lot like a Garden Warbler but with possibly just the feintest hint of yellow but possibly sunlight reflection, is on balance, most likely to have been.....not a Wood Warbler.....or am I still fishing in the dark?

Steve -

how did you rule out other phylloscopus species such as Willow Warbler and Chiffchaff?

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Absolutely no sign of an eye-stripe.

how did you rule out other sylvia species such as Whitethroat and Lesser Whitethroat?

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A very drab "same-coloured" bird.

Or to put it another way, for each of these two species, there are other species that are much closer in appearance than the one you have mentioned

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I can only say that this is possibly down to individual perception. To my eye, Whitethroat, Lesser Whitethroat, Willow Warbler and Chiffchaff (birds that I'm fairly familiar with in the field) are significantly different certainly to Garden Warbler and Wood Warbler (that I am less familiar with in the field) by their fairly distinctive colour distribution and jizz.

To my eye, Garden Warbler and Wood Warbler have similarly indistinct colouration distribution but with the advantage of course that Wood Warbler is yellowish or tending toward yellow dependant upon age and condition.

Your descriptions of Wood and Garden Warblers are very good there Steve and those descriptions make the disimilarities very clear, when viewing the two species in a bird guide however, my eye has not until now picked up on those disimilarities as clearly as you describe them and especially allowing for poor or out of season plumage.

At least you've convinced me totally that my bird was a Garden Warbler as I had surmised.

Thank you very much for that.

The other thing that you've reminded me of is the high crowned appearence of the sylvia warblers and the importance of jizz in making an ID.

It's ridiculously difficult, after 20 yrs of seeing most warblers simply as LBJ's to retrain my eye and my perception to disimilarities that are to me, often, subtle. It's coming, slowly.

Dave Gosney describes the garden Warbler in not disimilar terms to his description of the Knot, i.e. you can recognise it because its "knot" anything else. The principle with the Garden Warbler being, I presume, that it's so unremarkable as to be "not" anything else.

Do you know, I think that you may all have helped me to finally sort out Garden and possibly Wood Warbler to an unforgettable level, we'll see, thanks.

From my point of view, as a comparitive Warbler novice, this discussion has so far clarified points for Chiffchaff, Willow Warbler, Garden Warbler and Wood Warbler and so whilst it may all seem a little tedious and uneccessary to some of you; it's very valuable for me.

Thanks.

Wood Warbler is becoming quite a scarce bird and one of the main ways of finding one is to go to a spot where you know there are some present! they have a north and west bias and so there are hardly any in Norfolk (or Surrey, where I live) but they occur in Derbyshire (or Wales or Scotland). A good Derbyshire spot is Padley Gorge, near Grindleford (though you'll have to wait till next year now, try late April or May, when they'll be singing). Garden Warbler on the other hand is pretty widespread all over the country, though I wouldn't describe it as particularly common.

I find Whitethroats and Lesser Whitethroats difficult to separate unless you can get a good view of their back or hear their song.
Chiffchaff and Willow are easiest to separate by wing length or song; slightly harder though much more useful is the distinction between the 'hooweet' of either species.
I still dont believe it's possible to separate Garden and Blackcap by song, I can get it right 95% of the time, but I'm sure the experts can get it right 100%!!

paulwfromtheden said:

I still dont believe it's possible to separate Garden and Blackcap by song, I can get it right 95% of the time, but I'm sure the experts can get it right 100%!!

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It's possible to be 100% certain of a blackcap by song. If it has that mellow quality with well-spaced phrases and fluty final notes then it can't be a garden warbler.

However, it's not possible to be 100% certain of a garden warbler, as blackcaps can sometimes produce a very similar song. 95% certain is good enough for me though!

DGRW
Now that most of the warblers have shut up and shipped out to warmer climes, you can swat up on their calls and ID over the winter so that you are ready for them next Spring!! One way to seperate blackcap and garden warbler songs is to listen to the beginning of their song and then how they end it. Blackcaps tend to start with scratchy notes and then builds the sound to a more melodic ending. Garden Warblers tend to start of with more flutey notes - sounding almost thrush like- and ending with scratchy notes. Of course it isn't always as clear cut as that!

i never normally listen to recordings of bird song..but for the odd exception..i find it alot more rewarding to be able to id. from experience, the more you get out and watch and listen, the easier id becomes..
its a great feeling when you can id from song and confirm with a good view of the songster..
having said that we all get confused at times when a warbler especially...belts out a strange note or two!..which id. is needed visibly..
and that sometimes is tricky!

seggs said:

i never normally listen to recordings of bird song..but for the odd exception..i find it alot more rewarding to be able to id. from experience, the more you get out and watch and listen, the easier id becomes..
its a great feeling when you can id from song and confirm with a good view of the songster..
having said that we all get confused at times when a warbler especially...belts out a strange note or two!..which id. is needed visibly..
and that sometimes is tricky!

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Seggs

Do you look at identification guides when at home to learn the differences between visual features of birds? Presumably you do (as most birders would); then whats the difference between this and listening to bird call/song cds to learn the aural differences between birds?

I've probably listened to recordings for as long as i've looked at books, and to be perfectly honest, when out birding, perhaps 75% of my list on any particular day is made up from first hearing the bird. Even if i dont actually see it, i've still been able to recognise its presence and correctly identify it by its sound. Of course i like to see them, but i still know what it is that there, even if i cant see it.

Sight & sound, they compliment each other perfectly and to me, you're only half way there if you only know what they look like.

The best thing i ever did (in birding terms) was to learn bird song - it will probably double the amount of birds that you can identify. And more importantly, you will instantly recognise a sound that you dont recognise as something unusual (if you see what i mean!).

Mike

Just to buck the trend on the Garden Warbler vs. Blackcap, which is as difficult as it gets in this country, I think the middle of the song is easier for ID than the beginning or end. Blackcaps sing in distinct phrases, you can always hear the tiny pause which breaks the song down into 'chunks'. Garden Warbler usually has a continuous bubbling rhythm over several seconds which a Blackcap never has. I can only do 95% as well, but I with this method it is possible to be 100% certain of Garden Warbler and 90% certain of Blackcap, vice versa Capercaillie's tip. Perhaps combining both methods is the secret to 100%?

Graham

After 30 or so years of what I can only describe as "casual" and possibly half-hearted birding; I've come to appreciate ther value of being able to identify species by call or song. Before then I suppose I was more than a little lazy in my aproach to birding, hence my previous lack of appreciation for those LBJ's and also the small waders.

If you had asked me ten years ago, I may have said that I had a good knowledge of UK birds but when I started to do voluntary work for the RSPB I suddenly realised just how many huge gaps there were in my knowledge. It's those gaps that I've been trying to fill for the last couple of years.These days I would say that I have a reasonable basic knowledge of UK birds but that in comparison to many of the more experienced and knowledgable birders that I now meet my knowledge is very basic indeed in some areas, Warblers included.

As I've been working on identification by song or call I've also come to recognise some of the other subtleties of identification that I previously failed to appreciate. Small differences, eye ring colours. jizz and of course song.

Working on my knowledge of song and calls means that my attention is now drawn initially by call or song in maybe 60% of cases and I can now ID birds by song or call for a good proportion of that 60%, also of course there are many birds that can't be seen but that can be identified by song or call.

For me one of the most difficult groups of UK species to differentiate, due to previous laziness, is the warblers or at least some of them (I have a few problems with some of the small waders as well) but as I'm coming to recognise the sometimes, to my eye at least, subtle physical characteristics of some warblers, my ability to recognise subtle differences in song within the warbler group is at a very primary stage though hopefully it's developing reasonably well.

I don't think that I could differentiate the song of a Blackcap and Garden Warbler with any certainty at all in the field at this stage, I've only recently got to grips with or at least come to recognise the vocal disimilarities between Chiffchaff and Willow Warbler.

Whether we're talking about visual characteristics or vocal characteristics though, I find that the only real way to improve identification skills is to do all of the homework; bird guides, DVD's, CD's and conversations such as this, all of which are invaluable but then to get out in the field, find those birds and familiarise myself with them both visually and vocally. I find that once I've recognised those differences by seeing them in birds actually in the field two or three times, in many cases, I then remember them.

I think my knowledge of Warblers has advance significantly even during the course of this summer but it's taken quite a lot of time in actually finding some of them in the field. Not only are some of the LBJ's quite difficult to find at times, they're often fairly difficult to observe in detail once they're found and of course; some of those that I'm still struggling with are the less common ones, Wood Warbler being a good example on a localised basis at least.

Thanks for all of your comments overnight, I'll be having a full day of birding tomorrow at a location where I should get the opportunity to use some of your advice in the field.

Someone mentioned Whitethroat and Lesser Whitethroat earlier. I would differentiate by the Whitethroats richer brown colouration on it's back, a paler head without the obvious dark cheeks of a Lesser Whitethroat and that more solid delineation of colour between the cheeks and throat and, if close up; the visible pale eye ring of the Whitethroat that is not visible on the Lesser.

Any comments or advice on Whitethroats or the differentiations?

Hi DGRW,

Good to hear that you have identified your warbler.

The songs of Blackcap and Garden Warbler are difficult to separate but there have been some good hints on this thread. A friend of mine once heard Blackcap and Garden Warbler singing to each other, so maybe the birds can't tell some times either!

With separating warblers I think Willow and CHiffchaff are good place to start. They are tricky but become easier as you get used to them. They are both common in our country and so we can use them to practice looking at subtle plumage features, structure and bare-parts colouration. If you can confidently separate these two without hearing them sing (the call difference is not as easy as some people make out either) then you are heading in the right direction.

Cheers,

Mike Feely said:

Seggs

Do you look at identification guides when at home to learn the differences between visual features of birds? Presumably you do (as most birders would); then whats the difference between this and listening to bird call/song cds to learn the aural differences between birds?

I've probably listened to recordings for as long as i've looked at books, and to be perfectly honest, when out birding, perhaps 75% of my list on any particular day is made up from first hearing the bird. Even if i dont actually see it, i've still been able to recognise its presence and correctly identify it by its sound. Of course i like to see them, but i still know what it is that there, even if i cant see it.

Sight & sound, they compliment each other perfectly and to me, you're only half way there if you only know what they look like.

The best thing i ever did (in birding terms) was to learn bird song - it will probably double the amount of birds that you can identify. And more importantly, you will instantly recognise a sound that you dont recognise as something unusual (if you see what i mean!).

Mike

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hi mike
you made some great points replying to my post..
and all are right., just the difference is everyone prefers to be able to locate birds in different ways..
i am not knocking the recordings of bird song available, they are great these days..(compared to a few floppy discs free with certain publications years ago)..and the advance of the internet..
i am more old school..different sound!..find and id..
the more time you spend in the field,so to speak, the better you get..
we all live and learn..
great stuff..
all the best..

Clive Watson said:

I'm not an expert on moult but I believe that Willows are unusual in having a complete autumn moult so they are always fresh in autumn whereas Chiffchaffs are scruffier, at least in adult plumage. I apologise for the vagueness of this note, no doubt someone with a greater knowledge of these details will correct me if necessary.

Of course in spring you have songs to go on which helps enormously in many cases.

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Both adult WW and Chiff undergo a complete moult at the end of the summer, thus looking fresh.
Both young WW and Chiff undergo a partial moult at the end of the summer. In WW it can include lesser and median coverts, some inner greater coverts and tertials. Many young WW don´t moult any of those feathers or only a very few. In young Chiffchaffs this moult includes a few or all tail feathers, lesser and median coverts, and the inner greater coverts. Some individuals undergo a more extensive moult, including outer greater coverts, alula feathers and inner secondaries, rarely some outer primaries.
Both adult and 1st year WW undergo a complete winter moult in Africa, thus when they arrive in spring still look fairly fresh.
Both adult and 1st year Chiffs undergo a partial winter moult, usually including inner greater coverts, tertials and many birds some-all tail feathers. Spring Chiffs normally look fairly worn then.
Adult WW undergo two complete moults every year, being a very rare case in passerines.
Hope this helps,
Cheers
Eduardo

Thanks Motmot, it was the last bit that I was thinking of. I knew there was something unusual about the moult strategy of Willow Warbler.