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Bluethroat? (1 Viewer)

bittern

Well-known member
Switzerland
Would be interested to know if there is any thought about splitting the Bluethroats. The red-spotted and white spotted races appear to have totally different habitat requirements and even migrate at different dates so presumably there cannot be much gene flow between the races.

Mike
 
Maybe need to wait a bit!

Maybe I should ask the question (not) in a few thousand years time when the isolation of the populations will have gone back a bit longer.

Switzerland has clearly two populations, a few svecica breeding high up in the mountains and a few cyanecula breeding in lowland boggy areas, actually mostly in nearby France!

Thanks for the feedback!

Mike
 
I find it quite extraordinary that, just across the Channel in NW France, Bluethroats are well establised - and evidently increasing - in damp habitats, but in Kent similar habitat attracts not a single individual. In fact given the proximity of a healthy breeding poulation they remain surprisingly rare in the county in spring. Shame as they'd be a fantastic addition to the local fauna.

As for the idea of splitting the species I wonder where this would leave the largely "blue-spotted" birds in central Spain,
 
I find it quite extraordinary that, just across the Channel in NW France, Bluethroats are well establised - and evidently increasing - in damp habitats, but in Kent similar habitat attracts not a single individual. In fact given the proximity of a healthy breeding poulation they remain surprisingly rare in the county in spring. Shame as they'd be a fantastic addition to the local fauna.
Not so extraordinary actually. In the vast majority of long distance Palearctic passerine migrants the young usually return to close to their birth site (without looking it up, males closer than females I believe), so unless they have discovered somewhere really promising during their first month/two months out of the nest, when wandering around like a restless teenager, they will aim to stick close to their choice the following summer.

If they do discover somewhere new really promising then chances are it won't be over a body of water as large as the Channel, as this juvenile wandering is at a time when the migratory instinct hasn't really kicked in. They really don't feel the urge to cross it.

When they do arrive in the UK it is while they are making the longer migratory flights, while they are programmed to move long distances towards winter quarters. I was lucky enough to see three last autumn, and the 'perceived wisdom' for these was always 'Scandi birds blown off course'. If they got themselves back on the right route then I have no doubt they'll be heading back for that mythical country of Scandi.

The odd pair that do nest in the U.K. are going to remain just that, unless something extraordinary happens, say a large arrival at the end of the spring migratory period when the urge to travel is almost completely dormant again. Or monstrous easterlies at the end of the nesting period. Or, more likely I suspect, their favoured area becomes unfavourable through global warming. Until that time, as their parents did well where they were raised, then that will do for their genepool.

Tactics are different for things like Cetti's, which, as a more resident species, have a migratory restlessness that can switch off leaving them in good habitat and without having an urge to do an ET and go home.

But all those other long-distance migrants, so close as Calais and yet so far, are doing exactly the same thing as the Bluethroat. Going back to where they planned to. Just be thankful you're in Kent and not Kerry.

As for splitting, having had the pleasure of see Bluethroat races from the U.K. right over to the Orient in just the last twelve months, I enjoy them as they are, a successful species and say 'vive la difference'.
 
Marsh Warbler is even more common on the continent, suitable habitat is even more abundant in England, yet look at the state of that!
 
Marsh Warbler is even more common on the continent, suitable habitat is even more abundant in England, yet look at the state of that!

We used to have more of them, so we have lost them for some reason. Maybe another casualty of tidying up the countryside in general and riparian habitats in particular? Disturbance from fishermen? Preadtion by Mink? Its not easy living by a river in Britain.

John
 
Whilst I can see where DunnoKev is coming from, I think that the situation is somewhat more dynamic than he allows. From what I understand Bluethroat has significantly increased in numbers just across the Channel - in this context that there hasn't been any increase in spring reports (and maybe an overall decrease?) in Kent I still find surprising. It's also odd that the only breeding attempts in the UK have been in Scotland which is much further from their usual breeding grounds (and requires a greater water crossing). Then again, the fact that birds do things that we don't expect is one of the joys of birding!

The example of Marsh Warbler only serves to underscore this oddness since they have at least bred in the UK. In my limited experience the number of Marsh Warblers breeding in coastal NW France does seem to have decreased in recent years. I have often wondered whether population of the species in SE England depends on the overflow from colonies in nearby France.
 
Whilst I can see where DunnoKev is coming from, I think that the situation is somewhat more dynamic than he allows. From what I understand Bluethroat has significantly increased in numbers just across the Channel - in this context that there hasn't been any increase in spring reports (and maybe an overall decrease?) in Kent I still find surprising. It's also odd that the only breeding attempts in the UK have been in Scotland which is much further from their usual breeding grounds (and requires a greater water crossing). Then again, the fact that birds do things that we don't expect is one of the joys of birding!

Which race attempted to breed in Scotland?
As far as can be seen, the race of Bluethroat that shows the strongest tendency to found new populations is Scandinavian svecica. These birds typically found populations south of their usual breeding range, most often within the range of cyanecula, although usually indeed in a quite different habitat (often in bogs, at higher elevations than those where cyanecula normally breeds - resulting in situations like what Mike describes above for Switzerland). These new populations are presumed to be founded by birds that are on their northwards migration, but stop short of going back to where they were hatched. In some cases these populations remain quite isolated from surrounding cyanecula populations, at least for a while; in others apparently significant hybridization does occur.
If we believe the data offered by the last paper referenced by Daniel here above, cyanecula would appear to be closer to svecica in terms of microsatellites than namnetum (Atlantic France) and (still more) than azuricollis (Iberia).
Now, if we take the present situation as a guide: one possible explanation to this could be that there are regular genetic 'inputs' from svecica birds into cyanecula, through these newly founded populations, that in most cases finally blend into the local populations...

L -
 
Whilst I can see where DunnoKev is coming from, I think that the situation is somewhat more dynamic than he allows.

Oh I allow lots, I just go with probability and big numbers.

Scottish birds = probable late movers to Scandi sites, way off course (weather?) at a point in journey where zugunruhe decreasing, stay and breed rather than press on over North Sea.

French birds = probably already right back near their natal sites at which point zugunruhe will be switching off, so majority won't have any strong urge to wander far / cross water.

Joy of big number statistics = always dynamic, always a possibility.
 
In Denmark, southern bird have started spreading north as far as I remember (it is more than 6 years since I moved from Europe!).

I may be able to find more on the subspecies later ...

Niels
 
Bizarrely it was White-spotted Bluethroats that nested in the 90s in Yorkshire with 3 males present and 2 pairs successfully fledging broods. That again is a large jump north. Subsequently males returned for 3 years but no further breeding took place.
 
Bizarrely it was White-spotted Bluethroats that nested in the 90s in Yorkshire with 3 males present and 2 pairs successfully fledging broods. That again is a large jump north. Subsequently males returned for 3 years but no further breeding took place.

The birds breeding in southern Denmark are white-spots so these might be an intermediate situation to the white-spot/red-spot contrast that Dunnokev outlines, i.e white-spots that aren't qiute as close to home as French birds would be in Kent.
 
The birds breeding in southern Denmark are white-spots so these might be an intermediate situation to the white-spot/red-spot contrast that Dunnokev outlines, i.e white-spots that aren't qiute as close to home as French birds would be in Kent.

I do believe there has been a long story of them spreading from Holland to Denmark, so probably not a long jump involved ;)

Niels
 
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