DSLR and lens choice (1 Viewer)

GaryS · May 31, 2005

Hi everyone

I would like to get into photography and was considering a DSLR. Which of the following cameras would be the best bet? The camera will be for general family use and taking whitewater action shots for the sport of canoe slalom with an eye later on for use in bird photography (although it will be a very long time before I could afford a big lens):

Canon 350D or Nikon D70s

If possible could someone please explain to a non techie how the focal length of a digital lens is nearly twice ( ? conversion factor) that of a 35mm format (does the image appear larger on the memory card and the final printed photo e.g if the digital lens is say 70 mm does the final image look like that produced by a 120 mm lens in 35 mm format ?

and finally

is this lens any good:

Tamron AF 18-200mm Di II F3.5-6.3

Many thanks and best wishes

Keith Reeder · May 31, 2005

The D70s is literally brand new, Gary - I can't imagine that anyone will be able to provide any real advice about that one.

The D70 though is a camera that's been around for a wee while and is universally highly regarded.

You really couldn't go wrong with it or the Canon - there's very little to choose between 'em really, and a preference one way or another would likely be a purely personal thing, rather than because one is demonstrably better than the other.

FWIW, I've had a D70 for a couple of weeks now - my first dSLR - and I think it's tremendous: I'd never used any kind of SLR prior to buying this, and within hours I felt like I'd been using it for years. Everything's "to hand" and using it is very intuitive.

Also - for me - the ridiculously long battery life on the Nikon was a big deal: but it was actually Andy Rouse's review on the Warehouse Express website that finally swayed me - and he's a Canon man through and through.

I don't know about the lens - sorry - and I'm sure that others will be able to explain the "crop factor" better than I can..!

sdbirder · Jun 1, 2005

GaryS said:
If possible could someone please explain to a non techie how the focal length of a digital lens is nearly twice ( ? conversion factor) that of a 35mm format (does the image appear larger on the memory card and the final printed photo e.g if the digital lens is say 70 mm does the final image look like that produced by a 120 mm lens in 35 mm format ?

It is because the digital sensor is smaller than the frame of a 35mm film. I use the Canon 20D and focal length of a 35mm frame is 1.6 times that of the sensor in the camer. Here is an article that explains it:

http://bobatkins.photo.net/photography/digital/size_matters.html

Jim

WillyB1 · Jun 1, 2005

If this is your first SLR, take time to consider which lensing system you are buying into and which company is moving forward technologically. Canon and Nikon are the big boys. My choice was Canon. Be prepared to spend for that big zoom.

postcardcv · Jun 1, 2005

Personally I would not recommend the 350D, it is a very small camera and for me was to small and was uncomfortable to use (I ended up going for the cheaper 300D). I've used a friends D70 and thought it was an excellent camera. I'm sure that whichever you go for you'll be pleased with, but it's worth trying both out first to see which 'feels' better in the hand.
As has already been mentioned it's also worth considering future lens purchase, when you decide on the camera you're also decide which system you'll be using from then on. I was swayed to Canon as a birding friend has a lot of Canon kit and this way we can use each others lenses when out.

rezMole · Jun 1, 2005

Either camera would be fine - i went for the D70 because it felt "better" and more comfortable in the hand.

I have a Tamron 200-500mm Di lens which i think is excellent. I'm going to get a shorter zoom soon, but am opting for the Tamron 28-300mm rather than the 18-200. It is the same physical size, but i feel it'll be better to be able to go to 300mm rather than 200mm. When birding i usually leave the 200-500 on the camera, but it is a bit big to lug around when i'm just going on holiday or for a stroll in the park.

The 28-300 is also cheaper than the 18-200. If you can do without the extreme wide angle, then i think it's a better buy.

jimtfoto · Jun 1, 2005

Note that the Nikon D70s is a 6-megapixel camera, while the Canon 350D is an 8-megapixel camera. For about the same price.
No experience with the lens you specified, but you may want to look at something a bit longer (yes, size often matters in wildlife photography). At the very least look at a zoom up to 300 mm. My wife uses a Canon 100-400 and I have a Sigma 50-500 mm. Both excellent lenses. We both also have 2X teleconverters which doubles the focal length, but unfortunately only work with manual focus.
By the way, we have a friend who owns a kayak/canoe company and we have been shooting publicity shots for him with both those lenses.
cheers,
jim

GaryS · Jun 1, 2005

blythkeith said:
The D70s is literally brand new, Gary - I can't imagine that anyone will be able to provide any real advice about that one.

The D70 though is a camera that's been around for a wee while and is universally highly regarded.

You really couldn't go wrong with it or the Canon - there's very little to choose between 'em really, and a preference one way or another would likely be a purely personal thing, rather than because one is demonstrably better than the other.

FWIW, I've had a D70 for a couple of weeks now - my first dSLR - and I think it's tremendous: I'd never used any kind of SLR prior to buying this, and within hours I felt like I'd been using it for years. Everything's "to hand" and using it is very intuitive.

Also - for me - the ridiculously long battery life on the Nikon was a big deal: but it was actually Andy Rouse's review on the Warehouse Express website that finally swayed me - and he's a Canon man through and through.

I don't know about the lens - sorry - and I'm sure that others will be able to explain the "crop factor" better than I can..!

Hi Keith

Thank you for the very helpful reply - you are fast becoming my optical mentor!

I would imagine that the D70s is little changed from the D70 and so your remarks on the latter would hold for the new model. I note from the technical blurb that the D70s delivers faster frames per second which might be of use when getting the canoe shots where the action is very fast. There is very little price difference except that the Nikon cash back offer does not apply which is understandable.

Have you been using your D70 for bird photography? If so is it as difficult as I imagine? Which lens are you using?

The Rouse review is, as you intimate, very positive for the D70.

Cheers

GaryS · Jun 1, 2005

sdbirder said:
It is because the digital sensor is smaller than the frame of a 35mm film. I use the Canon 20D and focal length of a 35mm frame is 1.6 times that of the sensor in the camer. Here is an article that explains it:

http://bobatkins.photo.net/photography/digital/size_matters.html

Jim

The article is very informative and has helped me a lot.

Many thanks Jim.

Regards

GaryS · Jun 1, 2005

rezMole said:
Either camera would be fine - i went for the D70 because it felt "better" and more comfortable in the hand.

I have a Tamron 200-500mm Di lens which i think is excellent. I'm going to get a shorter zoom soon, but am opting for the Tamron 28-300mm rather than the 18-200. It is the same physical size, but i feel it'll be better to be able to go to 300mm rather than 200mm. When birding i usually leave the 200-500 on the camera, but it is a bit big to lug around when i'm just going on holiday or for a stroll in the park.

The 28-300 is also cheaper than the 18-200. If you can do without the extreme wide angle, then i think it's a better buy.

Thanks rezMole for the Tamron advice.

Am I right that at 300mm the angle of view would approximate to 460 mm in 35mm format? Would that also make the 28mm setting on the zoom give an angle of view like that of a 50 mm lens in 35 format (more a standard than a wide angle view) and is this how it would appear in the viewfinder - or have I got a bit confused?

Cheers

GaryS · Jun 1, 2005

jimtfoto said:
Note that the Nikon D70s is a 6-megapixel camera, while the Canon 350D is an 8-megapixel camera. For about the same price.
No experience with the lens you specified, but you may want to look at something a bit longer (yes, size often matters in wildlife photography). At the very least look at a zoom up to 300 mm. My wife uses a Canon 100-400 and I have a Sigma 50-500 mm. Both excellent lenses. We both also have 2X teleconverters which doubles the focal length, but unfortunately only work with manual focus.
By the way, we have a friend who owns a kayak/canoe company and we have been shooting publicity shots for him with both those lenses.
cheers,
jim

Thank you Jim. I have priced the lenses you mention and they are out of my price range at the moment. I take on board what you say about considering something a bit longer and will probably now consider the Tamron 28-300 zoom or the Sigma 28-300 zoom (assuming Sigma make good smaller zooms).

I am pleased that you are doing your bit for the canoeing fraternity!

Regards

GaryS · Jun 1, 2005

Sincere thanks to all who have taken the trouble to reply - your help is really appreciated.

More comments are very welcome.

Cheers

jimtfoto · Jun 2, 2005

Gary:
My wife also has the Tamron 28-300 and likes that as well. I had an older Tamron 28-300 when I was shooting film, but that lens wasn't one of the "optimized for digital" models that my wife has.
Can't speak to any Sigma in the 28-300 range, but I also use Sigma's 15-30 mm and have been extremely satisified with the lens.
Whatever you decide, I think 28-300 is a good range for you. Remember, you can always add a teleconverter.
Good luck with your quest.
cheers,
jim

postcardcv · Jun 2, 2005

GaryS said:
Thank you Jim. I have priced the lenses you mention and they are out of my price range at the moment. I take on board what you say about considering something a bit longer and will probably now consider the Tamron 28-300 zoom or the Sigma 28-300 zoom (assuming Sigma make good smaller zooms).

I am pleased that you are doing your bit for the canoeing fraternity!

Regards

The Sigma 28-300 is a good little lens - it's very compact and gives good results across the range. The current model includes a lens lock (so the lens doesn't open when walking with it on the camera) and a reasonable macro mode. The range is very useful as it allows you to take reasonably wide angle shots and then zoom in for a close up withouth changing lens, and it's not too expensive. Although not the ideal lens for birding, it's a very versatile lens and would probably suit your need very well.

rezMole · Jun 2, 2005

GaryS said:
Thanks rezMole for the Tamron advice.

Am I right that at 300mm the angle of view would approximate to 460 mm in 35mm format? Would that also make the 28mm setting on the zoom give an angle of view like that of a 50 mm lens in 35 format (more a standard than a wide angle view) and is this how it would appear in the viewfinder - or have I got a bit confused?

Cheers

Yes, that's about right.

Currently i have a 28-80mm and a 70-300mm. Both are Nikkor G models (the cheap ones). I'm not happy with the quality of either, hence my decision to get the Tamron 28-300mm Di - which will cover the range of those Nikkors. The Tamron 200-500mm Di is an exccellent lens - far better than the Nikkors, even at 500mm, so the sister model (28-300) should be pretty good.

The big Tamron is a well built lens (not "plasticky" like the Nikkors). It's just that i need something for "general" picture taking, that isn't heavy. The small Tamron is very light and compact so should fill my needs adequately.

I did consider the new Di II model (18-200mm), but like the idea of the range up to 300mm - still able to get reasonably close to many things.

As for the Canon 8 mega pixel versus Nikons' 6 mega. Not so sure this would make a lot of difference. It's probably always nice to have a few more pixels, but it's not something to get hung up about - unless you are going to be printing pictures larger than A3.

greypoint · Jun 2, 2005

Having used a Canon D30, 300D and 10D I swapped to a D70 for several reasons but mainly for its instant start up and ability to just keep on and on taking pictures without stopping to write to card. This is a great advantage for flying birds and i would assume for fast moving water sports. I'm not sure how much improved the 350D is over previous models in this respect but the D70 is a great budget 'bird' camera! I use mine almost all the time with a 135-400mm Sigma attached and it's great to handle. Spot metering works a treat too.

SeanKP · Jun 8, 2005

greypoint said:
Having used a Canon D30, 300D and 10D I swapped to a D70 for several reasons but mainly for its instant start up and ability to just keep on and on taking pictures without stopping to write to card. This is a great advantage for flying birds and i would assume for fast moving water sports. I'm not sure how much improved the 350D is over previous models in this respect but the D70 is a great budget 'bird' camera! I use mine almost all the time with a 135-400mm Sigma attached and it's great to handle. Spot metering works a treat too.

I have the 300D and the 350D and the 350D is MUCH improved over the 300D in terms of start up speed and continuous shooting. Start-up is instant and I can get well over 20 shots at approx. 3 per second on a relatively slow CF card.

As postcardcv mentioned, the 350D is considerably smaller than the D70 and 300D and to me this is an advantage (I have relatively small hands so it feels fine and is that much easier to carry) but I'd agree with the advice that you should check any camera before you buy to ensure that it feels "right" for you.

What pushed me towards the 350D over the D70 was the 8mega pixel sensor. Like Gary, I couldn't really afford anything longer than a 300mm lens and I figured that the additional 2 mega pixels would allow me to crop images that little bit tighter.

Sean

Keith Reeder · Jun 8, 2005

Ooops! Sorry Gary, I haven't looked at this thread for a while.

Anyway, yeah I'm taking pics of birds - the main reason I bought the D70 - using the Sigma 70-300mm APO II lens.

It's an uphill struggle, but I put that purely down to me and my lack of experience (and/or ablility!)

Rather than say it's difficult per se, I'd rather say it's difficult to be consistent.

For example, I surprised myself completely with the shots I took on this page http://www.kazemisu.me.uk/tp/index.php?id=102 - my first half-serious attempts at flight shots, and I'm very pleased with the dunlin too - whereas I've been out and about at other times taking "easy" shots which have turned out rubbish!

I've already decided to upgrade the lens though. I'm waiting for delivery of the Sigma 135-400mm used to such great effect by Greypoint, and hopefully that'll improve things. Part of the problem I've been having with the camera so far is a lack of decent light, and the bigger lens should help there, as will the additional reach.

rezMole · Jun 8, 2005

I don't suffer much from lack of light. Usually manage the get above 1/500th sec (at f6.3) which is usually adquate at 500mm. With the sunshine, i've been getting up to 1/2000th. Admittedly, i've been shooting mainly as ISO 400 which causes i bit of noise, but that has been easily removed by using the free Neat Image software.

Some examples of what i've managed can be found in my gallery (including some flight shots). http://www.birdforum.net/pp_gallery/showgallery.php/cat/500/ppuser/18597

Strandman · Jun 8, 2005

Another approach for entry to the DSLR world is to buy a used Nikon D100 - a great camera IMHO and ever cheaper because there is a general expectation that a D200 will emerge sometime soonish. The saving you make on the camera will then go towards a better long lens (300mm plus converter in my case).

I followed this entry strategy about a year ago and every £ spent on lens rather than camera has been well spent I think. Certainly more productive in quality terms than spending £s on reaching 8 megapixels compared to 6m.

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