A few more from Arizona mid October (1 Viewer)

I am going to upload a few images, some of which I have my own idea about, others not so much.

This first one is a raptor, which on the upperside had brown coloring (difficult to see, I think)

thanks
Niels

The second one is a sparrow from the Santa Cruz Flats area, cotton in the background

thanks
Niels[/QUOTE]

Just a complete shot in the dark but what about Gyrafalcon?

What about Brewer's for the sparrow?

Hi,

I'd say Swainson's Hawk and Brewer's Sparrow.

okay, one out of two ain't bad

Agree with both Swainson's and Brewer's. On the hawk, note the longer-than-tail wings and that "bib". Looks like somewhere between an interdiate juvie and intermediate adult with just the beginnings of the white face showing. Really nice shots, BTW! :t:

Thank you for the input! Here were my problems with the raptor: initial impression was smaller buteo, but I could not in Sibley find a drawing of a buteo that had this little white in the face and was this light on the belly. Looking at my camera the same evening, I felt it could be a male northern harrier molting into adult plumage. Getting it onto the PC after I came home seemed there were problems with NH, so I was a little bit at a loss.

For the sparrow, I thought that the face of the Brewers was more anonymous, that this one has too bold an eye-ring and too different a color in the auricular area?

thanks
Niels

I went into my Wheeler & Clark raptor book and while there's no bird in there that directly corresponds with the plumage on your guy, Swainson's still seems to be the closest based on the points I mentioned earlier but also, when brightening the first image in Photoshop to get a look at the tail banding, it's spot on for a juvenile bird. An adult Swainson's would have a dark terminal band. I'm sure no expert, so hopefully others will chime in here.

As for the sparrow, from the Brewer's I've seen, this one might be a bit grayer than average, but the other marks are consistent, even down to a slightly darker auricular patch. Its small bill and prominent white eye-ring are consistent with the ones I've seen here as well. Again, my limited experience with this species should be taken with a healthy grain of salt.

Swainson´s is a variable buteo, which ranges from the palest light morph to the darkest dark morph. Niels bird is indeed a light morph adult Swainson´s Hawk. The lack of pale face, as Niels puts it, is no big deal, the throat looks pale though.
I think the tail-banding is difficult to see properly, and it seems, as Katy points out, that there is no visible broader subterminal tail-band, just the usuall like ad/juv narrower ones, but rest of the bird is adult looking (!), the eye looks dark, lighter in juvs.
JanJ

njlarsen said:

The second one is a sparrow from the Santa Cruz Flats area, cotton in the background

thanks
Niels

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I think the sparrow is a Lark Bunting - first winter.
Has a face pattern, wing bars, and lot of blackish in the tail, some white--maybe a first-winter male.
CHEERS, JOE G

I`m in the Brewer´s camp, really can´t see this as a Lark Bunting, wrong shape, to long primary projection, small bill, bold eye-ring, unstreaked flanks, long tail, not the visible white in the coverts you would expect to see in LB.The only problem, if I´m right, is seemingly pale sides to the tail.
Some LB.
http://www.rshantz.com/Animals/Birds/Sparrows/LarkBunting/20041016LarkBunting01.htm
http://www.rshantz.com/Animals/Birds/Sparrows/LarkBunting/20031123LarkBunting03.htm
http://www.rshantz.com/Animals/Birds/Sparrows/LarkBunting/20031123LarkBunting02.htm
http://www.sonic.net/~shwand/birds/lark_bunting_100904.htm
http://www.birddigiscoping.com/birdLABU.html
http://www.geocities.com/tgrey41/Pages/LarkBuntingp.html

Brewer´s in August. (the first one)
http://www.schmoker.org/BirdPics/Photos/Sparrows/BRSP1.jpg
http://www.rshantz.com/Animals/Birds/Sparrows/Brewers/20041127Sparrow01.htm
http://www.rshantz.com/Animals/Birds/Sparrows/Brewers/20041113Sparrow01.htm
http://www.rshantz.com/Animals/Birds/Sparrows/Brewers/20030310Sparrow01.htm
JanJ

JANJ said:

I`m in the Brewer´s camp, really can´t see this as a Lark Bunting, wrong shape, to long primary projection, small bill, bold eye-ring, unstreaked flanks, long tail, not the visible white in the coverts you would expect to see in LB.The only problem, if I´m right, is seemingly pale sides to the tail.
Some LB.
http://www.rshantz.com/Animals/Birds/Sparrows/LarkBunting/20041016LarkBunting01.htm
http://www.rshantz.com/Animals/Birds/Sparrows/LarkBunting/20031123LarkBunting03.htm
http://www.rshantz.com/Animals/Birds/Sparrows/LarkBunting/20031123LarkBunting02.htm
http://www.sonic.net/~shwand/birds/lark_bunting_100904.htm
http://www.birddigiscoping.com/birdLABU.html
http://www.geocities.com/tgrey41/Pages/LarkBuntingp.html

Brewer´s in August. (the first one)
http://www.schmoker.org/BirdPics/Photos/Sparrows/BRSP1.jpg
http://www.rshantz.com/Animals/Birds/Sparrows/Brewers/20041127Sparrow01.htm
http://www.rshantz.com/Animals/Birds/Sparrows/Brewers/20041113Sparrow01.htm
http://www.rshantz.com/Animals/Birds/Sparrows/Brewers/20030310Sparrow01.htm
JanJ

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Hello,
Thanks for the effort in digging up all those pix.

I am not sure what to make of this bird. If you browse through your LARB photos, 7 of 9 (possibly 8 of 9) show a pale spot behind (at the back edge of)the auricular, just like the bird in question. No Brewer's photos show this spot. The nature of the auricualar border is very thick at the lower front, modest under eye-ring, and thinner behind eye. Auricular seems too distinctive for a Brewer's.

I don't know as I can make a strong case for LARB either. The wing bars seems too standard. Tails looks too long; there are hardly any flank streakings (should show up on most LARBs). The bill seems small for LARB (as indicated). [Seems a little on the stout side for BRSP]

Also tough to figure--the pale malar seems to skirt behind the bill [not good for either BRSP or LARB]. Brewer's have a small rounded head. Even flared, doesn't seem right to show all that flare at the top-back of head. The head seems proportionatley on the large side on the bird in question. The eye-ring flares at the back (not truely circular). Brewers have non-contrasting, brown tails with slight fork. The bird in question has a somewhat blackish tail--no forking evident.

I have seen plenty of BRSPs and LARBs, but am shy in experience on birds like SAGS. What about an odd juv-first-winter Sage Sparrow.

Can't seem to do any better, except that it isn't coming out just right for anything right now.
CHEERS, JOE G

Joe,
See your points against BS, but look at this:http://www.painetworks.com/photos/hk/hk0987.JPG
eye-ring not prominent like the subject bird, but there´s a pale spot in the rear ear- coverts, seen it in some BS, I wonder if the eye-ring really was that obvious, as it seems, or maybe reinforced due to a slight unsharpness in the image?
Some others:http://www.utahbirds.org/birdsofutah/BirdsA-C/BrewerSparrow.htm
http://mirror-pole.com/sierras/brewers/brw_cmp1.htm

Have a look at this Sage, in the middle:http://www.birdphotography.com/species/sags.html - labeled juvenile, which it can´t be in May, and that little streaked as well. After 1st PB moult in autumn (Aug, Sept) looks like adult, and would be more worn in May, as SY. Otherwise would be a possibility I think, or else I´m pretty lost here.
JanJ

JANJ said:

Joe,
See your points against BS, but look at this:http://www.painetworks.com/photos/hk/hk0987.JPG
eye-ring not prominent like the subject bird, but there´s a pale spot in the rear ear- coverts, seen it in some BS, I wonder if the eye-ring really was that obvious, as it seems, or maybe reinforced due to a slight unsharpness in the image?
Some others:http://www.utahbirds.org/birdsofutah/BirdsA-C/BrewerSparrow.htm
http://mirror-pole.com/sierras/brewers/brw_cmp1.htm

Have a look at this Sage, in the middle:http://www.birdphotography.com/species/sags.html - labeled juvenile, which it can´t be in May, and that little streaked as well. After 1st PB moult in autumn (Aug, Sept) looks like adult, and would be more worn in May, as SY. Otherwise would be a possibility I think, or else I´m pretty lost here.
JanJ

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___________________________
Howdy,
Really stretches it to go Sage Sparrow. I suspect you are right. Just have to squint my eyes a little, and it looks a little better for Brewer's. Not really much other choice. Thanks for all the supportive pix effort.
CHEERS, JOE G

Hi Everyone,

I’m a first time poster here, though I’ve been a lurker for a while. I take it that a JoeG from Oklahoma with a Black-capped Vireo avatar would be THE JoeG of Black-capped Vireo fame. I don't know if you remember me or not but we did some birding together some years back. Anyway, a big "Hi."

I just thought I would toss in my thoughts on these two mysteries. I agree that the first bird is a Swainson’s Hawk for the reasons Katy pointed out. The second bird is the one that seems more puzzling to me, mainly in that my initial snap judgment certainly did not pan out. Thoughts of Lark Bunting and Lark Sparrow popped into my head before settling on Brewer’s Sparrow. I think that the points favoring Brewer’s have been touched on here, with Joe being bothered by the pale spot on the rear of the auriculars. That seems unusually distinct to me too, but I think that that is okay. One more point favoring Brewer’s that I’m not sure I saw mentioned was the contrasting paler gray patch on the nape. This is typical of the small Spizella. Another thing that struck me initially, was how big headed the bird looked. But again, overall the plumage features seem to support Brewer’s. If one looks at these two images, I think that you can get a hint of a paler auricular spot:

http://www.rshantz.com/Animals/Birds/Sparrows/Brewers/20041127Sparrow01.htm
http://www.rshantz.com/Animals/Birds/Sparrows/Brewers/20041113Sparrow01.htm

Another sort of amusing comparison is to take this image of Lark Bunting and the mystery bird perched on barbed wire, and make a direct comparison of the size of the two birds relative to the thickness of the wire. To my eye, the mystery bird is considerably smaller than the Lark Bunting, a point that would support Brewer’s Sparrow. See:

http://tinyurl.com/8wg89
http://www.birdforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=33403

Also, I think that Sage Sparrow can be ruled out too, but I wanted to make a couple of comments about the juvenile photo that JanJ made mention of. See:
http://www.birdphotography.com/species/sags.html

Butterbredt Spring is in a high desert area in California where Sage Sparrow is a resident species. As is typical of many resident species in desert areas, breeding can be well underway before returning migrants have even reached their breeding areas. Butterbredt is a popular spot to visit for passerine migration in late May and early June, so my guess is that this photo was taken quite late in May. This is certainly late enough for juvenile Sage Sparrows to be out of the egg. There are a number of plumage features that suggest a juvenile too. First, the overall feathering (especially scapulars and underparts) has that flimsy juvenile feathering look. The wings, however, look rather fresh and in good condition, and the primary tips are each fringed with a nice pale border, which I would not expect on an adult at this date. The bird also looks streaked across the chest, but the angle is wrong for telling whether this is more extensive than on adults. Fortunately, other features support a juvenile too. There is no blue-gray cast to the head and upperparts as on adults, and the bird lacks the distinctive black lateral throat stripe of adult birds (compare with the adult in the image beneath). The bird also shows a broad, diffuse supercillium not found on adult birds. And finally, those who know him know the photographer to be an excellent birder who is unlikely to post mislabeled images. Thanks for an interesting photo quiz!

Chris

Tucson, AZ

Yes,that was my thought, that the image of the Sage might have been mislabeled as to date, but if taken late May, and as you say, that would be late enough for juvenile to have emerged, why is it not more heavily streaked on the flanks (?), be it nevadensis or belli. Wouldn´t they be, before 1st PB (postjuvenile) moult? Both adult and SY would be more worn in late May, SY a trifle more, due to a partial moult the year before,
JanJ

Hi JanJ,

The question of flank streaking is a good one, for which I cannot answer definitively, since I personally have little experience with the plumage. I suspect your are right in that a bird in May would be in juvenile plumage prior to any preformative (=post juvenile) molt. First off, I think that the overall appearance of the bird trumps any one odd-looking feature (as was the case with the Brewer’s Sparrow). I think that if one looks at a Sibley guide for example, one would come away with the impression that juvenile Sages are heavily streaked on the flanks. The Rising & Beadle Sparrow reference does show juvenile Sage as being extensively streaked, ala Sibley and unlike the Butterbredt bird. However, if one checks out the Beadle & Rising photoguide to Sparrows, the photo #28.3 shows a juvenile bird with rather faint streaking on the flanks. This is labeled as canescens, which is the subspecies that would be found at Butterbredt too. Admittedly, there is a bit more streaking than is apparent on the Butterbredt bird, but a number of other plumage features match well. If I overanalyze the image from Butterbredt, I can also talk myself into thinking that I am indeed seeing a few fine streaks on the flanks too (three or more in a diagonal down below the primary coverts, and a few more just below the folded primaries). The fluffed out feathering probably contributes to the obscure appearance of the streaks. I suspect a much larger image would reveal that the streaks are there. There may also simply be a fair bit of variation in this feature. An analogous situation that is typical in summer here in Arizona, is that a fair number of juvenile Song Sparrows (the pale fallax-saltonis variety) show essentially unstreaked underparts as juveniles, even when seen well. Yet this is not a plumage that you will find illustrated anywhere. Admittedly, this is a bit of a head-scratcher, but the idea of it being a poorly streaked juvenile makes more sense than it being an adult with a number of anomalous features.

Chris

Okey Chris, thanks for that, that makes sense.
JanJ

Thank you for the input, and sorry for seemingly leaving the discussion alone; I have esentially been without internet access for the last two days (partly by choise (nice dive!) and partly due to technical problems). I can confirm that the bird that now seems firmly named as a Brewer's was rather small, significantly smaller than the following sparrow (which I also would like a name for; is it a Savannah?) and even more smaller than the lark buntings that were present on the other side of the road. These images was from my first day birding in the USA since 1999 or 2000, and sparrow id was very far away (I got better during the following few days).

thanks
Niels

njlarsen said:

Thank you for the input, and sorry for seemingly leaving the discussion alone; I have esentially been without internet access for the last two days (partly by choise (nice dive!) and partly due to technical problems). I can confirm that the bird that now seems firmly named as a Brewer's was rather small, significantly smaller than the following sparrow (which I also would like a name for; is it a Savannah?) and even more smaller than the lark buntings that were present on the other side of the road. These images was from my first day birding in the USA since 1999 or 2000, and sparrow id was very far away (I got better during the following few days).

thanks
Niels

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Believe these are of Vesper Sparrow. Eye-ring, no clear superciliary, streaked underparts. Can also see some white in the tail.
CHEERS, JOE G