Binocularface
You've all got one...............!
No I didn't get any of the Southern Migrant Hawker. The Scarce Emerald Damselflies and Small Red-eyed Damselflies were a bit easier however.
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Southern Migrant Hawker (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Odonate
- Start date
No I didn't get any of the Southern Migrant Hawker. The Scarce Emerald Damselflies and Small Red-eyed Damselflies were a bit easier however.
That's a result- 2 you're not going to get around Cumbria!
Matt Prince
Sharkbait
Rhetorical I know - but three of us from Exeter (myself, my wife and Perry Smales) and plenty more besides looking at yesterday.
I thought I'd found the pond - and was lucky enough to locate a male Southern Migrant Hawker hung up which fortunately remained quietly dormant while several sets of people got on it - turns out I'd found the wrong pond, nevermind! :-O
Not to be outdone my wife then turned up trumps at Cliffe with two Southern Emeralds that fluttered around our feet for an hour and a bit.
If only the Dainty site was accessable...
p.s. Thanks Xenospiza for the Hartwort info, would probably have walked straight past without noticing that one amongst all the swathes of wild carrot.
jalethbridge
I like sea-watching
I read that message too and was amazed, though I had heard that museums do do this.
A few questions though.
1) Would this be the British Museum. I thought they were more interested in stone things?
2) Did anybody on site think to ask for this persons museum accreditation?
3) If they did, was this proffered?
4) If it wasn't, did anybody take a photo of the person doing the catching?
I'm not trying to start a witch hunt, but it does not sound good. I've got a net I use for moths, so what's to stop me bowling up at Hadleigh, nabbing one, saying it's for the Natural History Museum, and then leaving again?
In other words, was this kosher, and how can we find out. Phone the British Museum?
Had I been on site, no way would I have let somebody net one and take it away without being very VERY sure it was right and proper. And let's not even get into whether museums should be allowed to collect rare natural history specimens in the first place.
Rgds
Jonathan
A few questions though.
1) Would this be the British Museum. I thought they were more interested in stone things?
2) Did anybody on site think to ask for this persons museum accreditation?
3) If they did, was this proffered?
4) If it wasn't, did anybody take a photo of the person doing the catching?
I'm not trying to start a witch hunt, but it does not sound good. I've got a net I use for moths, so what's to stop me bowling up at Hadleigh, nabbing one, saying it's for the Natural History Museum, and then leaving again?
In other words, was this kosher, and how can we find out. Phone the British Museum?
Had I been on site, no way would I have let somebody net one and take it away without being very VERY sure it was right and proper. And let's not even get into whether museums should be allowed to collect rare natural history specimens in the first place.
Rgds
Jonathan
Paul Woolnough
Well-known member
Why twitch dragons?
I twitched the southen migrant hawkers and connected. South Essex not too far from me.
I do take your point but with dragonflies is it possible to see all, or virtually all the species, recorded in Britain. This is not so with birds!
My totals
Birds England 409 out of 550 and more latest Cornish chough and brown shrike
Birds Norfolk 372 no one has 400 latest river warbler
Dragonflies England 39 out of 47 approx.
I twitched the southen migrant hawkers and connected. South Essex not too far from me.
I do take your point but with dragonflies is it possible to see all, or virtually all the species, recorded in Britain. This is not so with birds!
My totals
Birds England 409 out of 550 and more latest Cornish chough and brown shrike
Birds Norfolk 372 no one has 400 latest river warbler
Dragonflies England 39 out of 47 approx.
dbradnum
Well-known member
I was thinking along exactly the same lines - I hope there's someone out there who has some details, and it wasn't just allowed to happen while everyone stood there open-mouthed!
Given all the great photos that have been taken by various people, a specimen really adds nothing to the record.
Given all the great photos that have been taken by various people, a specimen really adds nothing to the record.
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Gomphus
Well-known member
I am staggered too by the "collected" message..... I would have thought we had got past this dubious practice..... I recall one at least of the Green Darners was "collected" too. I know I would have been tempted to put this guys collecting equipment where the sun don't shine had I been there, even if it was the British Museum.............
What possible reason could there be for this? When these insects have been so well photographed etc is there any real need to add another dead specimen of an already presumably well known species?
if this was an "official" collector (and I have doubts) then we need to make sure that this practice is complained about and if possible stopped.
Interestingly are any UK Dragons or Damsels protected under the law?
Edit:- I found out it appears Southern Damselfly requires a license to handle etc and is given red data and BAP coverage....
ATB
Steph'
What possible reason could there be for this? When these insects have been so well photographed etc is there any real need to add another dead specimen of an already presumably well known species?
if this was an "official" collector (and I have doubts) then we need to make sure that this practice is complained about and if possible stopped.
Interestingly are any UK Dragons or Damsels protected under the law?
Edit:- I found out it appears Southern Damselfly requires a license to handle etc and is given red data and BAP coverage....
ATB
Steph'
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Phil Bishop
Well-known member
If these and the Southern Migrants are breeding, as would appear to be the case, would they be covered by the relevant legislation as rare breeding species?
Mind you I have seen occasional references to the collecting of voucher specimens , though usually to new or out of range moths in Atropos, so I guess a few people still carry on with this antiquated tradition.
lewis20126
Well-known member
Locale vouchers (as opposed to types) are a bit on a nonsense these days. They don't really prove anything and are as open to fraud as any form of record (witness Meinertzhagen's records - not just confined to birds BTW). We don't collect UK vouchers for new birds* and I don't see the need to collect them for other easily identified animals which are well photographed.
cheers, alan
*FWIW I think SO & non-photographed records should be removed from the list.
Gomphus
Well-known member
Just had a thought..... British Museum????? They are antiquities, it would be the Nat Hist if it was insects.... I have a feeling its all a load of B******** by a nob trying to justify this act to the others present. I just discussed it with a mate via Email and was disturbed to find that Butterflies are still collected quite often in this way by private individuals as they had had a case on one of the sites they monitor. I had thought this was a dying practice but it appears its alive and well!
I agree with Alan that voucher specimens in this case (locale etc) is out dated and unnecessary for the reasons stated and just on shear moral grounds.
I accept that with some creatures it is necessary to collect to prove id etc...... but that doesn't excuse it in the case of large easily id'd and photographed species.
I suppose its like my mate just said, all you can do is ostracize them and make your views known loudly at the time, in the event there is no legal protection.....
ATB
Steph'
I agree with Alan that voucher specimens in this case (locale etc) is out dated and unnecessary for the reasons stated and just on shear moral grounds.
I accept that with some creatures it is necessary to collect to prove id etc...... but that doesn't excuse it in the case of large easily id'd and photographed species.
I suppose its like my mate just said, all you can do is ostracize them and make your views known loudly at the time, in the event there is no legal protection.....
ATB
Steph'
HarassedDad
Norfolk County Butterfly Recorder
Take a look on ebay under taxidermy and you'll find people making a living selling wild-caught butterflies. I wouldn't be surprised if this doesn't turn up on ebay in the next few days. "British caught Southern Migrant hawker" would be worth a few bob I suspect.
jalethbridge
I like sea-watching
Like I said, the BM like stone stuff, generally belonging to other countries. I didn't notice anyone from the British Museum taking a pot-shot at that Eastern Crowned Warbler, or maybe that's why it disappeared after a couple of days.....
Jungle Cat
Well-known member
I was at Penlee when a well known dragonfly expert tried to collect a Green Darner. He was dissuaded by the rather large crowd. As far as I know he left without his specimen. I had the good fortune to see three Southern Migrant Hawkers at Hadleigh recently and found the news of someone succeeding in taking a specimen highly upsetting. These beautiful creatures deserve a free life and natural death. I am very dubious that this person was from the British Museum, more likely a sad trophy hunter. I hope he enjoys his prize.
John Hague
aka The Drunkbirder
Sadly I would suspect that SMH has no legal protection until breeding is proved. I hope someoone photographed this ******** and we can get it plastered all over the internet... I will happily post it on my blog!
StevePreddy
Well-known member
I'd agree: based on the evidence we have, this seems like a pretty clear-cut case of unnecessary collecting (and I say this as someone who records several insect taxonomic groups where you have no choice but to collect to get anywhere near a positive identification).
Sadly, the British Dragonfly Society has a policy which basically says (I paraphrase & simplify) "collecting dragonfly voucher specimens is generally a good thing and anyone who tries to stop it from happening is evil".
There's an interesting history here - the successful dissuasion of Philip Corbet (I guess I can name him as he's dead now) from collecting the Penlee Green Darner by the crowd mentioned above caused such a stink among the higher echelons of British odonatology that it was felt that a formal policy was needed to stop this kind of thing happening again. The development of that policy was all a bit odd - no-one I spoke to at BDS wanted to listen to arguments that there might actually be a good reason not to collect in some circumstances. Personally, I think the desire not to upset Corbet over-ruled any kind of common sense coming into play and I think the policy survives to this day unchanged. If Steve Dudley's reading, he may able to add some more detail to the above: I seem to remember that he got a public b*ll*cking from the BTO's Chief Exec in the pages of BTO News for daring to criticise Corbet but this was more than ten years ago so I could be misremembering the details.
Sadly, the British Dragonfly Society has a policy which basically says (I paraphrase & simplify) "collecting dragonfly voucher specimens is generally a good thing and anyone who tries to stop it from happening is evil".
There's an interesting history here - the successful dissuasion of Philip Corbet (I guess I can name him as he's dead now) from collecting the Penlee Green Darner by the crowd mentioned above caused such a stink among the higher echelons of British odonatology that it was felt that a formal policy was needed to stop this kind of thing happening again. The development of that policy was all a bit odd - no-one I spoke to at BDS wanted to listen to arguments that there might actually be a good reason not to collect in some circumstances. Personally, I think the desire not to upset Corbet over-ruled any kind of common sense coming into play and I think the policy survives to this day unchanged. If Steve Dudley's reading, he may able to add some more detail to the above: I seem to remember that he got a public b*ll*cking from the BTO's Chief Exec in the pages of BTO News for daring to criticise Corbet but this was more than ten years ago so I could be misremembering the details.
RoyW
Well-known member
I completely agree with your first paragraph, but the British Dragonfly Society code for collecting actually says (and I quote directly, without 'paraphrasing or simplifying'):
"Principle 2: Dragonflies should only be killed for justifiable and useful scientific purposes.
National and major regional museums with entomological staff need to hold study collections of dragonflies. These serve to ensure that material from different time periods and geographical areas is available in the long term for research. Voucher specimens of adults or larvae are occasionally needed to ensure the accurate identification of a difficult or unexpected species, when alternatives such as field notes and/or photographs alone would not suffice."
The full code of practice can be found here: http://www.dragonflysoc.org.uk/codeprac.html
Edit: The last sentence of the above quote seems to confirm the views of those on this forum - the collection of the specimen in this case was unnecessary.
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StevePreddy
Well-known member
Thanks Roy, I think I may be a little out of date then: in fact, at the bottom it says "Policy reviewed and redrafted March 2009". The original took a much stronger pro-collecting line, so well done to the BDS if, as it seems, they've listened to criticisms and improved the policy.
