Mid-range high quality for money spotting scope (1 Viewer)

Tnx for your input Joachim. The thing is that I dont want a fixed EP. I want a 20-60 zoom.

Does the Nikon also beat the Pentax? Ive read superb reviews about that one too, both should be considered very close to the topline, but which one is the best optically?

Some mention should be made of the all too real problem of sample variation in scopes. The sad fact is that many units do not perform up to their design potential because of defects like coma, astigmatism, pinching, excessive spherical aberration and poorly made roof prisms. Predictions about how one model will compare to another often fall apart in the real world of actual individual scopes. Opinions and reviews are often based on a lucky or unlucky acquisition of a cherry or a lemon. Even "professional" reviewers seldom carry out the tests needed to determine whether one or more of these common defects is present.

A high magnification "star-test" is the best way for a buyer to identify a lemon, or just a mediocre or below average unit. Unfortunately most people are not interested in learning how to do that and even those who try it may not correctly interpret the results. A less informative, but still useful test is just to evaluate sharpness at 60x. Don't bother with lower magnifications like 30x, which can look OK even in a bad unit. Any good 80mm or even 60mm scope should come to a securely sharp focus at 60x in steady air. If it doesn't there is something wrong with it.

The nice thing about the Pentax and other scopes that use the 1.25 fitting is you can get some REALLY nice fixed EP's for not too much money.

@Henry, thank you very much, I will check my scope when I've bought it. It is frustrating that with spending so much money one can still end up with a bad scope. Im just hoping that with scopes from brands like Nikon and Pentax this sample variation occurs less and is less severe.

@giosblue, but im only interested in a 20-60 zoom eyepiece.

Still wondering what would be the best choice, the Zeiss ED82 or the Pentax FD-82ED, both with 20-60x eyepiece

Must admit I really like my Hawke Endurance 85ed. I paid £590 from Uttings which included a Slik D3 tripod. Great value for money in my book. :t:

Rich

ClarkWGriswold said:

Must admit I really like my Hawke Endurance 85ed. I paid £590 from Uttings which included a Slik D3 tripod. Great value for money in my book. :t:

Rich

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Hi, why did you choose the Endurance, do you know anything about the difference with the Sapphire and Frontier models, that are priced roughly the same?

How does it perforum in low light, with heat vibrations and how sharp is from 40x up?

Did you compare it with other scopes?

About the Nikon Eyepieces, I would rather have the 20-60x zoom, but at the store they only have an 16x/24x/30x Wide DS and 27x/40x/50x MC. How do these work?

You can switch it to 3 zooms without unscrewing it, just as easy as a zoom eyepiece? Or does it take more effort and time to switch magnification?

Are those magnifications just as good as a fixed eyepiece from the magnification, say 30x?

Is the MC version optically just as good as the DS version or not? 27/40/50x will suit me better.

http://www.cameraland.nl/img/d68285...ce-16x-24x-30x-wide-ds-sn-6954.jpg?w=&h=&q=80

http://www.cameraland.nl/verrekijke...ieldscope-spotting-scope-eyepiece-mc-sn-1779/

Hi DS. There was a price difference in the Hawke models when I bought it. I basically went on the recommendation of another Forum member - Ratal. There's a little softening higher up the mag but for me, I'm really happy with the set up. The other scope I was tempted by was the ed50. One of the members of the local club has one and it's a beauty. I went for the bigger set up in the end as I bird some big estuaries and occasionally I'm out past dusk.

The only other scopes I've looked through have been various Swarovski, Leica and Kowa. 4 times the price of mine but absolutely superb. Again, all belonging to members of the local club.

Rich

Dutch,

The 16x/24x/30x refers to the differing magnifications with the same eyepiece on different scopes of the same line.

Example...the Nikon ED 50 gives you 16x with that eyepiece but if you use the same eyepiece on the 60 mm Fieldscope III then it yields 24x. 30x would be with the big 82 mm Nikon.

It is a fixed magnification eyepiece on each scope.

Re. Low light - I was watching Jack Snipe late in the last week with no issues. Atmospheric conditions are another matter but I think most scopes will struggle there. The only thing I'd say is it's quite a heavy set up. I've carried it 10 miles+ along with bins, camera, flask etc. and I ache a little afterwards. Might be my age though:-O

Rich

FrankD said:

Dutch,

The 16x/24x/30x refers to the differing magnifications with the same eyepiece on different scopes of the same line.

Example...the Nikon ED 50 gives you 16x with that eyepiece but if you use the same eyepiece on the 60 mm Fieldscope III then it yields 24x. 30x would be with the big 82 mm Nikon.

It is a fixed magnification eyepiece on each scope.

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Ahah, that makes sense! tnx :tity the zoom eyepieces are so expensive. Im not sure the second hand Nikon Fieldscope ED82 (the mint green one) with a new 20-60 eyepiece fits my budget and I also read that it's hard to use the Nikon zoom eyepiece while wearing glasses. That would be a dealbreaker.

But I get the impression its the option that brings me closest to the top of the line scopes of Swaro, Zeiss, Leica and Kowa, more so than the Pentax FD-80ED, Vortex Viper, Meopa S1 75 APO or Opticron ES80 or one of the hawke's.

ClarkWGriswold said:

Hi DS. There was a price difference in the Hawke models when I bought it. I basically went on the recommendation of another Forum member - Ratal. There's a little softening higher up the mag but for me, I'm really happy with the set up. The other scope I was tempted by was the ed50. One of the members of the local club has one and it's a beauty. I went for the bigger set up in the end as I bird some big estuaries and occasionally I'm out past dusk.

The only other scopes I've looked through have been various Swarovski, Leica and Kowa. 4 times the price of mine but absolutely superb. Again, all belonging to members of the local club.

Rich

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Thank you. So the difference with the top tier scopes was pretty obvious optically?

@giosblue, but im only interested in a 20-60 zoom eyepiece.

So was I until I tried some of the fixed EP's.

The difference in top tier scopes wasn't very obvious to me, but I was comparing the Kowa with the 25x60 zoom with the Pentax using fixed EP's. I have the Pentax XL 8-24mm Zoom and the Baader Hyperion Zoom Eyepiece. Optically there is nothing to chose between them. The Pentax has far better build quality and its weather proof, neither of them are has good as the fixed though, but again there isn't that much difference, The fixed have a wider FoV though. I think where the Kowa scores is it's 25x60 zoom, this is probably the best zoom you can buy, having said that, it's still not as good as a top quality fixed ep. the difference is negligible though. To my eyes anyway.

giosblue said:

@giosblue, but im only interested in a 20-60 zoom eyepiece.

So was I until I tried some of the fixed EP's.

The difference in top tier scopes wasn't very obvious to me, but I was comparing the Kowa with the 25x60 zoom with the Pentax using fixed EP's. I have the Pentax XL 8-24mm Zoom and the Baader Hyperion Zoom Eyepiece. Optically there is nothing to chose between them. The Pentax has far better build quality and its weather proof, neither of them are has good as the fixed though, but again there isn't that much difference, The fixed have a wider FoV though. I think where the Kowa scores is it's 25x60 zoom, this is probably the best zoom you can buy, having said that, it's still not as good as a top quality fixed ep. the difference is negligible though. To my eyes anyway.

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If the Pentax really is (almost) as good as the Kowa 883 optically that would be great, because I can leave the Nikon, being second handed, without an eyepiece, more expensive, and not great for glasses-wearers.

But is the Pentax still as good as the Kowa when using zoom eyepieces on both of them, at the highest magnifcation, in low light conditions?

Why did you switch to fixed eyepieces? I can imagine the image quality is higher, but I wouldn't want to switch eyepieces because you could miss that important bird, and I would miss to much detail with only 30x magnification on far away birds.

Thank you. So the difference with the top tier scopes was pretty obvious optically?[/QUOTE]

Must admit that I thought so. But again. There is a HUGE price difference.

Rich

DutchSparrow said:

If the Pentax really is (almost) as good as the Kowa 883 optically that would be great, because I can leave the Nikon, being second handed, without an eyepiece, more expensive, and not great for glasses-wearers.

But is the Pentax still as good as the Kowa when using zoom eyepieces on both of them, at the highest magnifcation, in low light conditions?

Why did you switch to fixed eyepieces? I can imagine the image quality is higher, but I wouldn't want to switch eyepieces because you could miss that important bird, and I would miss to much detail with only 30x magnification on far away birds.

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No, the Pentax is not as good as the Kowa at high mag and low light, you wouldn't expect it to be when using the zoom on both scopes. This is mainly because the Kowa zoom is the best there is, having said that, up to about 50x it gives it a run for it's money. With the Pentax you can swap the ep's that quick, it's almost as fast as using the the zoom. My problem when using the zoom is, I use it too much. For most of my birding a 35x is ideal and with some of the fixed ep's you can get a really wide fov. This gives a very you a VERY impressive image.

Ok. I would still use a zoom. Hope it still gives an impressive image then, more than the meopta S1 75 apo en Nikon Fieldscope Ed82 (the mint green one).

I own a Nikon ED82 with all the fixed lenses and the 25-75 zoom. We also have a Kowa 883 (angled) with the 25-60 zoom. Finally, we have a small Nikon ED50 mounted with the 13-40 zoom (25-75 on the ED82) and another ED50 mounted with a fixed DS lens, resulting in a 16X fixed magnification.

Simple summaries...from small to large.

ED50 with 16X fixed DS (super sharp wide-angled view). This scope craps out slightly with the zoom at high magnification due to a dirty internal lens. You would not notice it unless you knew what the scope was capable of...see next. Note: tested with two zooms and the problem is in the scope, not the zoom eyepiece. At 16X it's a really great view.

ED50 with the 13-40 zoom (this zoom is 25-75X magnification when used on the ED82 scope). We have two zooms. On this ED50 sample the zoom is pin sharp all the way to 40X. There is absolutely nothing technically wrong with the image. Short eye relief, narrow view and reduced brightness all apply, but the image itself is simply amazing for such a small scope.

ED82. The best lens (IMHO) is the fixed 30X DS, something I used almost exclusively for many years. I had the 50x but rarely used it. I purchased a 75X DS a few years ago for astro use that is extremely sharp but not all that useful in the nightime backyard.
ED82 with the 25-75X zoom. Pin sharp all the way to 75X with great color etc. However, it's a royal pain to use with eyeglasses, the FOV is narrow and the zoom mechanism is not user-friendly. The focus adjustment (collar type) on the ED82 is also so sensitive it often becomes truly cumbersome to find a sharp focus. Great optics in many ways but not a user-friendly zoom lens.

Kowa 883 with the 25-60 zoom.
Well, if I drop it over a mountainside I'll simply make a phone call and buy another. The view is as sharp as it gets (edge-to-edge), the image delivered to the eye is CA-free, full of rich and vibrant colors. The dual focus is PERFECT and a pure joy to use. The zoom has plenty of eye relief for my eyelgasses and a nice wide FOV. Operating the zoom is almost effortless. I often zoom and fine focus on moving targets (e.g. raptors in flight) with my left hand as I pan with the right. My eyes require small focus adjustments at different magnifications and this scope makes the twin operations (mag change and focus adjustment) seamless. Finding a distant raptor at 25X and then tracking and zooming to 60X for a close ID is a real joy. The Kowa 883 is as-good-as-it-gets.

Summary:
I'll never own a scope without a zoom.
Changing fixed lenses is cumbersome and impractical.
75X magnification is great but very limited in the real world of ground-level atmospheric disturbances. I find 60X an optimum compromise and I don't think I miss much at all. Even the 60X craps out when surface temps create atmospheric disturbances.
Buy the very best you can afford and check the scope and eyepiece before accepting it.
If weight is a consideration there are some very fine 50-65mm scopes with great eyepieces.
I looked at them all and bought the Kowa 883.

Thank you very much for sharing your experiences. It's such a shame that the ED82 with zoom eyepiece isn't usable when you wear glasses. That is a reason for me not to buy it.

A 65mm would be great in terms of weight and price, but would not give me enough light transmission for low light situations.

So I think the Pentax FD-80ED will be my next best option in terms of image quality. But would love opinions and experiences from others about this scope in comparison with other in the same price class (under 1000 euro).

Hi,

regarding the Pentax, there are very good examples but unfortunately sample variation exists and there also seem to be some lemons around from what you can read online. Nikon and Kowa seem to have the occasional problem too, but seldom bad optics.

With the Pentax you can use astro EPs which gives you many options, although most good ones are fixed. A notable exception is the Baader zoom but from what I know the Pentax doesn't focus to infinity with it - not sure what giosblue did to use it.

Joachim

jring said:

Hi,

regarding the Pentax, there are very good examples but unfortunately sample variation exists and there also seem to be some lemons around from what you can read online. Nikon and Kowa seem to have the occasional problem too, but seldom bad optics.

With the Pentax you can use astro EPs which gives you many options, although most good ones are fixed. A notable exception is the Baader zoom but from what I know the Pentax doesn't focus to infinity with it - not sure what giosblue did to use it.

Joachim

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That's a risk, because I would order the Pentax online from abroad, so I can't test it before purchase. The price is to high in the Netherlands. I would use it with Pentax' own 20-60x zoom eyepiece.

I also read this review where the Pentax isn't reviewed much better than the Vanguard Endeavor HD and Bushnell Elite and much lower than top of the line scopes: http://www.petersenshunting.com/featured/bes-spotting-scopes-of-2013/

Those two things make me doubt if Pentax is the best option when I won't be able to check the sample quality in front of purchase. But I don't know what else would be a better choice with less sample variation, maybe Hawke, Vortex, Opticron, Meopta?