Mid-range high quality for money spotting scope (7 Viewers)

[Gijs van Ginkel]

Dutch Sparrow, post 40,
Try before you buy, go to a shop that carries a number of different scopes and try them. Ordering on line would be a no-go for me, since you are not able to check them first.
There are two shops that carry different types of telescopes (there may be more, but from these I am sure: Vogelbescherming in Zeist and House of Outdoor in Maarssen. Both shops are equipped to compare telescopes side by side.
Gijs van Ginkel

 

[FrankD]

Why did you switch to fixed eyepieces? I can imagine the image quality is higher, but I wouldn't want to switch eyepieces because you could miss that important bird, and I would miss to much detail with only 30x magnification on far away birds.

Not speaking for the original poster here but rather from personal experience.

Now excluding any of the high end "wide angle" zoom eyepieces, the benefits offered by a mid-magnification wide angle eyepiece compared to a standard (40 degree-60 degree) zoom are fairly obvious in practical use. I have not really run into a situation where I felt the benefits of the extra 30x (31x-60x) outweighed the benefits of wide, flat field of a fixed 30x magnification eyepiece.

Case in point, I have the option of using either a fixed mag eyepiece or a zoom eyepiece on several of the scopes I own. In almost every case I opt for using the fixed mag wide angle eyepiece instead of the zoom as I find the wide field of view more beneficial in finding the bird. The narrower field of view of a zoom eyepiece severely handicaps you (in comparison to a wide angle eyepiece) when it comes to initial finding an object not to mention when scanning large areas casually. The only real benefit I have found with a zoom is if I am looking at an object at significant distance (over a hundred yards for example) and it is a very small object (shorebirds, etc..) and they are relatively stationary in nature.

This accounts for such a small percentage of my regular use that I could never justify just owning a zoom eyepiece with a standard field of view.

In addition, if the fixed magnification eyepiece/scope body combination is of good/high quality in terms of the optical performance then I often find the image quality suitable at 30x to get all of the necessary details out of an image....again, in the types of situations that I use a scope for.

Just throwing my two cents in overall. Not really trying to persuade you away from a zoom.

Also, I do agree with everything that Pileatus posted above with the understanding that a high end/wide angle zoom eyepiece doesn't fit into my comments above.

Lastly, I owned the Pentax 80..and the 65 and both of the original Celestron Regals (65 and 80 mm). I thought the Regal was in the same overall optical category as the Pentax and actually preferred the image quality of the Celestron with the factory supplied zoom in comparison to the Pentax with the XL zoom. Better contrast being the primary reason. Pairing the Pentax with one of their fixed mag/wide angle eyepiece was a different story though. I would opt for the Pentax if that were the case.

Hope this proves helpful.

 

[DutchSparrow]

Dutch Sparrow, post 40,
Try before you buy, go to a shop that carries a number of different scopes and try them. Ordering on line would be a no-go for me, since you are not able to check them first.
There are two shops that carry different types of telescopes (there may be more, but from these I am sure: Vogelbescherming in Zeist and House of Outdoor in Maarssen. Both shops are equipped to compare telescopes side by side.
Gijs van Ginkel

I want to, but in the Netherlands it is hard to find a store which has all of the scopes I would like to compare, like the Pentax, Vortex and Hawke. House of Outdoor doesn't sell Vortex and im not sure they have the Pentax. Maybe Foto Rooijmans, also a great spotting scope store. The other thing is that for some scopes, ordering abroad saves hundreds of euro's, giving me the opportunity to buy a scope, like the Pentax, that would be outside my price range in the Netherlands (1700 euro). So than I can buy a better scope but I won't be able to check sample variation before buying.

Not speaking for the original poster here but rather from personal experience.

Now excluding any of the high end "wide angle" zoom eyepieces, the benefits offered by a mid-magnification wide angle eyepiece compared to a standard (40 degree-60 degree) zoom are fairly obvious in practical use. I have not really run into a situation where I felt the benefits of the extra 30x (31x-60x) outweighed the benefits of wide, flat field of a fixed 30x magnification eyepiece.

Case in point, I have the option of using either a fixed mag eyepiece or a zoom eyepiece on several of the scopes I own. In almost every case I opt for using the fixed mag wide angle eyepiece instead of the zoom as I find the wide field of view more beneficial in finding the bird. The narrower field of view of a zoom eyepiece severely handicaps you (in comparison to a wide angle eyepiece) when it comes to initial finding an object not to mention when scanning large areas casually. The only real benefit I have found with a zoom is if I am looking at an object at significant distance (over a hundred yards for example) and it is a very small object (shorebirds, etc..) and they are relatively stationary in nature.

This accounts for such a small percentage of my regular use that I could never justify just owning a zoom eyepiece with a standard field of view.

In addition, if the fixed magnification eyepiece/scope body combination is of good/high quality in terms of the optical performance then I often find the image quality suitable at 30x to get all of the necessary details out of an image....again, in the types of situations that I use a scope for.

Just throwing my two cents in overall. Not really trying to persuade you away from a zoom.

Also, I do agree with everything that Pileatus posted above with the understanding that a high end/wide angle zoom eyepiece doesn't fit into my comments above.

Lastly, I owned the Pentax 80..and the 65 and both of the original Celestron Regals (65 and 80 mm). I thought the Regal was in the same overall optical category as the Pentax and actually preferred the image quality of the Celestron with the factory supplied zoom in comparison to the Pentax with the XL zoom. Better contrast being the primary reason. Pairing the Pentax with one of their fixed mag/wide angle eyepiece was a different story though. I would opt for the Pentax if that were the case.

Hope this proves helpful.

Hi, thank you very much for sharing your experience, I really appreciate that.

About the fixed vs zoom. I would really love to have the benefits of a wide fixed in image quality and FOV. But still, I'm affraid it leaves me unable to determine the species of so many birds. Because in my experience 30x is a low magnification and birds are always to far away so you need to get it closer with at least 40x magnification. Or even higher would be even better but than you really need a good piece of equipment that will be too expensive. So I'm surprised that you say you almost never get in the situation that the 30x doesn't get you close enough. What kind of birds do you watch in what kind of landscapes?

About the Pentax. I haven't even put a Celestron on my shortlist because I've read soms reviews in which it didn't get ratings as good as the other scopes on sharpness. And the Pentax is rated very high on the point (talking about combinations with zoom eyepieces now) But you say the Pentax FD 80ED with a zoom EP isn't that good, or the Celestron is better than I think and a better option when I want a zoom? Also on the area of sharpness and chromatic aberrations? And do you know how the Regal 80 compares to a Vortex Viper 20-60x85, Hawke Frontier ED 20-60x80 or Meopta S1 75 APO 20-60?

And if I do go for a fixed EP, would you recommend the Pentax over the Nikon Fieldscope (mintgreen version) ED82 with fixed EP? I found one second handed but didn't want it because the zoom EP can't be used while wearing glasses, but with a fixed EP it would be an option, and when see the reviews, maybe the best one in my budget range.

 

[jring]

Hi,

regarding use of zooms - I have to admit, that my zoom is rarely used as a zoom either - it's usually on my scope and set to max magnification (52x). I scan with bins and if I need a closer look at sth, I aim with the cable tie sight and usually am on target to enjoy a nice 70 deg afov view. Lower mags happen when light fails...

I have a 30 wide but it sees not too much use.

Joachim

 

[FrankD]

DS,

To answer your first question, I watch a variety of different birds in a variety of different landscapes. The two that immediately come to mind when it comes to long-distance viewing are hawkwatching (at a designated migration spot) and waterfowl watching at some of the local lakes and quarries. Hawkwatching as a dedicated birding activity typically occurs over the fall months on the top of a local mountain. We readily identify birds at 2 miles +. In that case it isn't specific plumage characteristics that we look for but rather flight behavior and silhouette. Both are readily identifiable with a good scope at 30x..plus finding the birds is so much easier, and more enjoyable, at 30x, or lower, than it is at 40x +. Plus, atmospheric conditions come into play in these types of conditions where increasing the magnification only increases the atmospheric effects and not really any detail on the bird.

Waterfowl watching on lakes and quarries is notably closer with the average "long distance" being between 100-200 yards. In this case I do rely a little more on plumage but, again, also on overall silhouette and behavior (ie, is it diving alot? Is it by itself or with others of its kind, etc...). In addition, if I am scanning a large flock of geese (as one example) looking for either a rare bird (Ross's, Cackling, Pink-footed, Greater white-fronted) or to read neck-collars then the notably wider angle of a fixed mag eyepiece is a true benefit..where there could be 10,000 birds to sort through. Reading the collar itself would be a situation where slightly higher magnification would be a benefit but, when I have run into that situation, I often phonescope a picture of the bird and then "zoom" in either with the phone's zoom or afterwards in post processing to read the numbers/letters on the collar.

Having said all that and assuming your base criteria (price range and prefer a zoom) then you may consider one particular design that was implemented by a variety of companies a few years ago. In the United States it is sold under Zen Ray, Vortex and, to a lesser extent Kite. They are practically the same scope with some slight differences in construction/coatings but it is offered with a 25-50x wide angle zoom. To my knowledge it is the only "less than $2000" scope that offers a wide angle zoom. Not all versions offer the wide angle zoom but both the Zen Ray and the Kite do. Here are the links.....

http://www.kiteoptics.com/en/product/39/sp-ed-82/

http://www.zen-ray.com/shop/spottingscopes/primehd-spotter-2550.html

The latter, according to the website, is out of stock. You may be able to find the scope rebadged under other brands. Hope this helps.

Lastly, you may want to reference my original review of the Celestron Regal 80 and the subsequent 3 scope comparison between it, the Zen Ray and the Theron Mag82.

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=204083&highlight=Theron

 

[mayoayo]

I think the celestron regal has a very good reputation for a reason..Celestron improved the model by shaving some of its hefty weight off, and that says something in a time where other brands keep adding models to their lines in an attempt to surprise the market with another yet witty model name of similar average performance

 

[Alexis Powell]

...I'm surprised that you say you almost never get in the situation that the 30x doesn't get you close enough. What kind of birds do you watch in what kind of landscapes?...

My experience is the same as Frank's. I keep a fixed wide field 30x on my scopes and it is very rarely the case that I need higher power. I carry a high powered (or zoom) eyepiece separately, for those occasions. I look at all sorts of birds--waterfowl on marshes, shorebirds, raptors, longspurs and other ground-dwelling birds in open fields--of all sorts of sizes, but I don't feel need for different magnifications in these situations. Rather, my ability to detect birds by eye or with binoculars depends on their apparent size. Once a bird appears large enough--based on its its proximity and actual size--to be detectable and capture my attention by eye or through 8x binoculars, it is generally identifiable at 30x.

--AP

 

[DutchSparrow]

Thanks very much again for helping me make a thorough decision. I must admit, that I'm thinking differently now about fixed eyepieces. Maybe I should go for a very good 30x wide eyepiece, start with something of high quality, instead of wanting it all at once with a zoom, and maybe later, when I still miss extra magnification, add a good zoom eyepiece or higher fixed eyepiece.

About choosing a scope, I tried the Celestron M2 Regal 80 today in dusky conditions. I didn't have any comparison but it seemed pretty good to me. But in a few days I wil go try a second hand (mintgreen) Nikon Fieldscope ED82 with a 30x Wide DS eyepiece, both from a store, with 1 year warranty. The Nikon can't be used very well with a zoom eyepiece and glasses, so I had skipped that option, but with a 30x eyepiece it should work better and with this Nikon being second-handI suddenly have a (almost?) alpha quality scope in my reach that with that eyepiece hopefully gives a whole lot of image quality, more than buying a new scope under, say, 1200 euro's (Vortex, Hawke, Meopta S1 75 APO, Pentax, Celestron, Bushnell, Opticron) I hope it is in good condition and doesn't disappoint.

 

[giosblue]

The problem with evaluating optics is the quality of the light at the time you're using them. Ideally you need all the scopes you're looking to buy side by side for a few days at least. This is what I did, relying on memory is not a good thing. Because I work in retail I took advantage of buying on-line. At the back end of last year and the beginning of this I had a Kowa TNS883 25x60 zoom, Hawke Sapphire 20x60, Opticron HR80 with 20x60 SDL zoom. Opticron HR66 with SDL zoom, Opticron ES80 with SDL zoom and HDF zoom and the Pentax PF80ED with fixed EPs and a Pentax zoom and Baader Hyperion zoom. The final shoot out was between the Kowa TSN883 and the Pentax PF80ED.

I really wanted the Kowa, anyone who has used one of these will know why. It exudes quality and is a really, really nice piece of kit. This was the scope I was going to buy, however, just for the fun of it I ordered a the Pentax, I had read such glowing reports about it, I felt I had to give it try before making my final choice.
I had, had the Kowa for a couple of days before the Pentax arrived and I also had some Opticron Ep's that I bought when I had the HR80, because at the time this was the scope I was going to keep. I sold the scope but kept the Ep's.. When I first tried the Pentax I was immediately impressed when using the Baader zoom and even more impressed when I used the Opticron EP's. I have since tried Baader Morpheus 14m Ep's, Televue 14mm.
delos. The view you get from these is superb, the downside is the eye relief is not good.

I wanted the Kowa, but in a side by side comparison I could justify the cost. The Pentax was that good.

So, to cut a long story short, I now have a Pentax PF80ED with a Pentax XW20mm, Pentax XF12mm and Pentax zoom.Opticron 15mm HDF I have also have a BST 12mm Explorer, this was half the price of the 12mm Pentax and I can't tell the difference. If there is difference it not worth mentioning. I also have a 15mm BST Explorer, cost £49 and it is superb on the Pentax, nearly has good has the XW20mm. If I was buying again I would probably just buy four BST EP's 8mm 12mm 15mm and a 18mm. The only problem with BST's, they are not weather proof, so the XW20 and the Opticron 15mm are good to have, just in case the weather turns.

 

[Gijs van Ginkel]

Dutch Sparrow, post 43,
Vogelbescherming has the Kite telescope, although it may be sold under their own name as 'Havik"or a similar name. It has the 25-50x wide angle zoom and the telescope had the same mount (I think it still does) as the Swarovski telescopes, so you can make a choice. I must have a test report somewhere from this telescope, but I have to dig into my files.
Gijs van Ginkel

 

[Pileatus]

Thanks very much again for helping me make a thorough decision. I must admit, that I'm thinking differently now about fixed eyepieces. Maybe I should go for a very good 30x wide eyepiece, start with something of high quality, instead of wanting it all at once with a zoom, and maybe later, when I still miss extra magnification, add a good zoom eyepiece or higher fixed eyepiece.

About choosing a scope, I tried the Celestron M2 Regal 80 today in dusky conditions. I didn't have any comparison but it seemed pretty good to me. But in a few days I wil go try a second hand (mintgreen) Nikon Fieldscope ED82 with a 30x Wide DS eyepiece, both from a store, with 1 year warranty. The Nikon can't be used very well with a zoom eyepiece and glasses, so I had skipped that option, but with a 30x eyepiece it should work better and with this Nikon being second-handI suddenly have a (almost?) alpha quality scope in my reach that with that eyepiece hopefully gives a whole lot of image quality, more than buying a new scope under, say, 1200 euro's (Vortex, Hawke, Meopta S1 75 APO, Pentax, Celestron, Bushnell, Opticron) I hope it is in good condition and doesn't disappoint.

A good ED82 with a 30X DS eyepiece is DEFINITELY an alpha level view. I used mine exlusively with the 30X for more than ten years.

 

[mooreorless]

Not sure what the price is, but there is such a Pentax with zoom offered on Astromart right now. You may need to subscribe for $15 to be able to contact the seller.

http://www.astromart.com/classifieds/details.asp?classified_id=931146

$799+ shipping this is not my ad.

 

[jring]

Hi,

when you try the ED82, also try with the zoom or high mag fixed EP if available in order to evaluate the quality without a star test.

Joachim

 

[DutchSparrow]

Thanks again for all your replies!

Hi,

when you try the ED82, also try with the zoom or high mag fixed EP if available in order to evaluate the quality without a star test.

Joachim

How can I tell if it is a cherry or a lemon? What do I have to look for? the point is how to determine that its a lemon and not just the maximum quality the scope and eyepiece have to offer.

 

[Gijs van Ginkel]

DutchSparrow, post 54,
Life is rough, but you can easily see if the telescope you are investigating performs well if it has:
- a size and weight that does not instantly cause you to age on the spot
- looks and fees well made
- does the focussing device work allright with sifficient resistance not too heavy and not to light. In the first case yu are in troube when you want to follow a flying bird and in the secnd case a little movement can cause loss of focus, while you were just at the point that you saw a bird nobody had seen the there before
- sharp images (look at a brick wall for example)
- with sufficient brightness
- with good color reproduction(look with one eye through the telescope and with then other to the object in this case a white wall to see color shifts)
- is the eyecup of a reliable construction
- does it have a tripod platform of sufficient size and/or does it function as a quick release plate for a tripod
- Pray that you took the right decision and enjoy it.
Gijs van Ginkel

 

[DutchSparrow]

DutchSparrow, post 54,
Life is rough, but you can easily see if the telescope you are investigating performs well if it has:
- a size and weight that does not instantly cause you to age on the spot
- looks and fees well made
- does the focussing device work allright with sifficient resistance not too heavy and not to light. In the first case yu are in troube when you want to follow a flying bird and in the secnd case a little movement can cause loss of focus, while you were just at the point that you saw a bird nobody had seen the there before
- sharp images (look at a brick wall for example)
- with sufficient brightness
- with good color reproduction(look with one eye through the telescope and with then other to the object in this case a white wall to see color shifts)
- is the eyecup of a reliable construction
- does it have a tripod platform of sufficient size and/or does it function as a quick release plate for a tripod
- Pray that you took the right decision and enjoy it.
Gijs van Ginkel

I know how a good scope should be I meant how to determine the sample variation, to ensure you have a good version of a good scope. Maybe there are soms tests or things to pay attention to that I can try in the store at daylight to ensure the Nikon ED82 in question is as good as such a scope should be, and not being a bad sample.

 

[jring]

Hi,

a good ED doublet should be able to show at least a sharp image at the max magnification of the stock zoom EP during daylight - it will be a bit dark due to the small exit pupil but should be sharp and have good contrast. Also the best focus should be in a clearly defined focuser position and not over a range.
A star test (either at night or with an artificial star) is better and shows different aberrations but needs some prerequisites and experience - here is a primer by sb very experienced but books have been written on the subject.

http://www.bbastrodesigns.com/JoyOfMirrorMaking/StarTesting.html

Joachim

 

[Nick-on]

Hi all, I really love this forum!

I'm looking for a new spotting scope to replace my Bynolyt T80ED. I'm not able to pay for the 1500+ top of the line scopes, so i'm looking at scopes with a max of 1000 Euro's with a high quality for money ratio. After a lot of reading I came to this shortlist.

- Vortex Viper 20-60x80
- Meopta Meopro S1 75 APO/HD
- Hawke Endurance ED 20-60x85/Frontier ED 20-60x85/Sapphire ED 20-60x82
- Opticron ES80 GA ED v3 Angles 20-60x80
- Bushnell Legend Ultra HD 20-60x80
- Vanguard Endeavor HD 82A 20-60x82

Which one of these would be the best in terms of optical quality (especially sharpness, light sensitivity, clarity, chromatic aberrations)? Build quality is less, but also important.

Do you have other suggestions that will be less than 1000 Euro and better than my shortlist?

Will this be a enough improvement over my Bynolyt T80 ED that is 8 years old, especially when zooming in? Or will I gain a lot more improvement if I up my budget to, say, 1200 euro's?

Thank you so much in advance for your help. Most of these scopes are not widely available in the Netherlands, let alone in the same store for a good comparison so I could use the extra input and info before checking scopes in the store.

Kind regards
Theo

Back to the original question. Can only help with the Hawkes. Looked at all 3 models at the Birdfair and then looked at (with a view to buying) the Frontier and the Endurance last week. The Frontier was better at low mag, up to 35x approx but then at higher mag it struggled. At 60x I could not bring it into sharp focus, I suspect this may be partly due to the focussing mechanism being fairly coarse unlike the endeavour which has a coarse and fine focus wheel. The field of view was better in the Frontier and also seemed slightly sharper at the lower magnifications. Unfortunately no fixed eyepieces available for the Frontier only the Endeavour. In the end didn't buy either as didn't think they were an improvement over my nearly 20 year old Nikon ED78 with 30xW, although will admit the zoom on the Nikon is not brilliant.
Best bet is pick a scope, look through it and if you are happy with the view, buy it. There will always be a better scope, sharper, brighter, cheaper, lighter etc. don't worry about it just enjoy looking at the birds with it.
FWIW out of all the ones mentioned under €1000 I'd get the secondhand Nikon ED82 but with a 30xW.

HTH

Nick

 

[DutchSparrow]

:t:Thanks Joachim and Nick!

I just came home from the store, where I tried the Ed82 with 30x Wide. I had a Swarovski ATS 80HD 25-50x next to it for comparison. I was impressed. It performed so good, even in the difficult lighting of the time, less than an hour before sunset, being pretty dark already. It turned a smile on my face.

I watched a long time at some black birds (Jackdaws) high on an apartment building against a pretty bright sky and it really proves it's alpha status, although I wasn't able to test it with the zoom. But with the fixed eyepiece it was as good as the Swarovski with the zoom.

So I purchased it and am very happy with it! I didn't expect to be able to buy a scope from the top of the line so I feel very fortunate with it. I wasn't looking at second hands, but the scope has been checked by the store and with a 1 year warranty I hope it will be alright on that part. The eyepiece was really well priced too and when I miss the higher mag I can always add a zoom or higher mag fixed eyepiece later to complement this one. So thank you all very much for giving such good and thorough advise!!:t::t:

 

[Alexis Powell]

Nice! The 82ED is a great scope (as is the older 78ED, mentioned by Nick) and the 30x MC or DS eyepiece gives a beautiful wide and sharp view. My favorite other eyepiece on that scope is the 50x MC or DS. It works nicely (when the air is still) for scanning and viewing distant shorebirds and waterfowl. When using the 30x, and I need to steal a quick look at high power (very rare ocassions), I take off my eyeglasses and use the 25-75x MCII. Few scopes offer the choice of such high magnification.

--AP