Is this a Clamorous Reed Warbler? India (1 Viewer)

Sumit · Mar 31, 2009

Hi Folks,
Those who have seen image uniddacro1.jpg have ID'd it as a Clamorous Reed Warbler. I saw the bird in the field and aside from: 1) behaving unlike a Clamorous (bird skulked at the water's edge and did not call or fly across to a higher perch when disturbed), 2) being larger looking, and 3) being found at a city park where no Clamorous has ever been recorded before, I am uncomfortable with the jizz being similar to Clamorous, a bird I see often enough.

Would appreciate views of members with wider experience.

>>Single bird seen on two days at the same place at a city park with a waterbody, Kolkata city, eastern India.
>>January/February 2005.
>>Clamorous and Oriental Reed (rare) are the only large acros recorded in the area though Great Reed (a. arundinaceus) is said to occur as a vagrant (though this is disputed)

I have a couple of additional images that can be shared should those be needed.

Cheers!
sumit

ggregory71 · Mar 31, 2009

Dear Sumit,
Identifying warblers from photographs is often a very difficult matter, since they can sometimes be very misleading. Perhaps it is best to leave some (or many!) unidentified.
I have trapped quite a few large Acrocephalus warblers, but measuring them in the hand and seeing them in the field are often quite different things.
This bird seems (I repeat seems!) to have the jizz of a Clamorous, but I cannot quite make out the primary extension very well.
My best conclusion, for what it is worth, is that I cannot see any real reason why it is not a Clamorous. Please forgive me for the double negative.
Are there any features that you saw that make you think it may not be a Clamorous? Again, please forgive the negative.

Sumit · Mar 31, 2009

ggregory71 said:
Dear Sumit,
Identifying warblers from photographs is often a very difficult matter, since they can sometimes be very misleading. Perhaps it is best to leave some (or many!) unidentified.
I have trapped quite a few large Acrocephalus warblers, but measuring them in the hand and seeing them in the field are often quite different things.
This bird seems (I repeat seems!) to have the jizz of a Clamorous, but I cannot quite make out the primary extension very well.
My best conclusion, for what it is worth, is that I cannot see any real reason why it is not a Clamorous. Please forgive me for the double negative.
Are there any features that you saw that make you think it may not be a Clamorous? Again, please forgive the negative.

Thanks ggregory71. No, it is only a feeling and I am happy to get re-confirmation that it is a Clamorous. Sometimes local experts assume the obvious and Clamorous is fairly obvious in our area. I have suffered in the past because of this approach. So getting an independent evaluation is very welcome and I can proceed to close this discussion.
Thanks again,

Sumit · Mar 31, 2009

Hi ggregory71
I think it is only fair to illustrate my discomfort. The attached is what the usual Clamorous that we encounter looks like. Somehow, I found the other bird structurally very different - much more stocky and thick-billed with huge bristles.......but I think there may be some variability that I have not encountered before.
Thanks again,
Sumit

Jane Turner · Mar 31, 2009

My first impression was that this was Oriental/Great Reed type. It looks a whopper!

ggregory71 · Apr 1, 2009

Dear Sumit,
Clamorous can show quite a lot of variation in bill depth, just as Great Reed can. I think that one of the key features would be primary extension, but, as I said, I cannot make it out very well on the original photographs. Can you show the other photographs - they may help.

Jane Turner · Apr 1, 2009

Primary extension is not quite so helpful with Oriental/Clamorous Reed Warbler I think.

http://orientalbirdimages.org/images/data/oriental_reed_warbler3249_oc.jpg

ggregory71 · Apr 1, 2009

Dear Jane,
You are right, as ever, but it would probably help in the elimination of Great Reed types.
Dear Sumit,
I suggest that there is a great need for you or somebody to start a program of trapping some of these difficult warblers, obtaining full biometrics (especially wing formulae, bill length and depth etc), taking full plumage descriptions and good quality close up photographs of the birds in hand. It seems that there is a great opportunity for new scientific discoveries to be made where these birds are. As said before, confidently identifying some of these birds from photographs in the field is very difficult and, for many, just about impossible.
Have you considered this or has such a program been attempted already? I really wish that had the time and money to come and do this, since this looks like an important and useful matter.

Sumit · Apr 1, 2009

ggregory71 said:
Dear Sumit,
I suggest that there is a great need for you or somebody to start a program of trapping some of these difficult warblers, obtaining full biometrics (especially wing formulae, bill length and depth etc), taking full plumage descriptions and good quality close up photographs of the birds in hand. It seems that there is a great opportunity for new scientific discoveries to be made where these birds are. As said before, confidently identifying some of these birds from photographs in the field is very difficult and, for many, just about impossible.
Have you considered this or has such a program been attempted already? I really wish that had the time and money to come and do this, since this looks like an important and useful matter.

Dear ggregory71,
Attaching 2 more images as requested in your previous post.
Strange as it may sound, the bird is structurally very similar to Gray's Warbler Locustella fasciolata [see: http://orientalbirdimages.org/searc...1768&Bird_Image_ID=27374&Bird_Family_ID=&p=7] in my eye. But that species is very very out of range and has orange-buff undertail coverts and I only mention it because that is what matches this bird best.
As far as collecting in India is concerned, it is a big issue these days and is a near impossible task. We will always try, and some of this work helps in gathering the required background material for that task, but there is just too much red tape and too little resources available and on top of that we will not take external help if we can.
Cheers!
sumit

ggregory71 · Apr 1, 2009

In the first photograph, the bill, seen at an odd angle, appears moderately thick. In the last photograph, however, more in profile, it appears thinner, and not unlike some Clamorous. The primary extension appears quite short.
I am not familiar with Gray's Grasshopper Warbler, so cannot comment.
When mentioning trapping, I did not mean taking specimens by killing the birds (the usual meaning of collecting, I believe). I meant trapping to take biometrics etc, then releasing the birds. Two or three 40 foot Japanese nets, some poles, guys, bird bags, a stopped ruler and a set of calipers should only cost about 100 pounds sterling, whatever the equivalent in rupees is. You clearly have a camera. There is no need even to ring the birds. Is there so much bureaucracy and red tape that this cannot be arranged? Sometimes grants for such scientific work are available from various bodies. You say that this is a 'big issue'. Could you please explain why this is? Possibly you meant killing the birds; if so, then I understand, but I did not mean this.

Sumit · Apr 2, 2009

ggregory71 said:
In the first photograph, the bill, seen at an odd angle, appears moderately thick. In the last photograph, however, more in profile, it appears thinner, and not unlike some Clamorous. The primary extension appears quite short.
I am not familiar with Gray's Grasshopper Warbler, so cannot comment.
When mentioning trapping, I did not mean taking specimens by killing the birds (the usual meaning of collecting, I believe). I meant trapping to take biometrics etc, then releasing the birds. Two or three 40 foot Japanese nets, some poles, guys, bird bags, a stopped ruler and a set of calipers should only cost about 100 pounds sterling, whatever the equivalent in rupees is. You clearly have a camera. There is no need even to ring the birds. Is there so much bureaucracy and red tape that this cannot be arranged? Sometimes grants for such scientific work are available from various bodies. You say that this is a 'big issue'. Could you please explain why this is? Possibly you meant killing the birds; if so, then I understand, but I did not mean this.

Thanks ggregory71,

My conclusion is that the bird is, perhaps, a different sub-species from the known types that visit/live in India. There are some odd looking eastern Clamorous on OBI and I think this may be one of those.

As far as trapping is concerned (and I understood your suggestion as trapping), the law of the land does not allow anyone to catch or kill a wild bird (other than those declared vermin) anywhere in the country. Permission of the Forest Department of the respective states or state is required in writing. That is often not available. In case permission is received, the only agencies allowed to mist net/collect are the Zoological Survey of India (ZSI) and the Bombay Natural History Society (BNHS). ZSI is a collecting organization and have shifted focus to insects, arthropods etc ever since the shooting ban was enforced on birds. They have no mist-netters. BNHS is a voluntary body which is internationally supported and based in far away Mumbai. It has a team of trappers led by scientists. But that small team is working full time on following up on transmitter fitted waterfowl as part of a internationally funded project to understand the spread of H5N1 (I have worked with them on this project).

You can always do the unethical and collect using mist nets without going through this expensive (a whole BNHS team has to come from Mumbai to collect ) rigmarole. But that is breaking the law and someone can actually persecute you. More importantly, sending material for DNA outside the country without requisite clearances can be even more dangerous and the law against doing that can carry very heavy penalties. Perhaps, one reason why the Bugun Liochichla has no DNA results on file despite having been accidentally collected and released

Hope that answers your question.

phil baber · Apr 2, 2009

There's one bird that hasn't made it into this thread, and, looking at the very last photo of Sumit's, I wonder why?
In the 1st photo it almost looks like it has an eye-stripe before the eye,but in the last photo one can obviously see that the loral area is a very pale grey. The bill stout and the culmen obviously decurved.
In this photo it doesn't appear to possess a supercilium.It does appear to have a diffuse grey-white eye-ring.
Its warmish brown crown contrasting with the pale lores,and diffuse grey-white eye ring gives it a "capped" effect.
Its fore-breast,flanks and (onto the) undertail coverts are markedly buff washed.
The tail is long, the tip markedly rounded (see 2nd photo).
The tail base and rump are noticeably a ruddier brown, in contrast to the greyer-brown mantle.
The tail itself is rusty coloured.
The primary projection appears "medium short".
Consider its apparent more sluggish skulking behaviour. Its forward-hunkered posture.(Clamourous being more attenuated and sleek looking.)
Blue-grey legs.

All these details are the summation of my initial hunch on what this bird might be.
I put forward that (for reasons explained above) it ticks many of the ID boxes for Acrocephalus aedon.

Thick-Billed Warbler.

My only stumbling-block is the size? You said "larger-looking"?
Did it just appear to you that way? Or did you have good and direct size comparisons?

Thick-Billed does winter in India. But, Sumit, is it found where you are, and what do you think about my suggestions?

Sumit · Apr 2, 2009

phil baber said:
I put forward that (for reasons explained above) it ticks many of the ID boxes for Acrocephalus aedon.

Thick-Billed Warbler.

My only stumbling-block is the size? You said "larger-looking"?
Did it just appear to you that way? Or did you have good and direct size comparisons?

Thick-Billed does winter in India. But, Sumit, is it found where you are, and what do you think about my suggestions?

Thanks Phil.
Thick-billed winters in small numbers in our area and would fit 'larger-looking' because it is larger than Clamorous.
I am familiar with Thick-billed and often jokingly refer to it as the "yuhina acro" because of its 'crested' look. All acros are very difficult for me and I cannot comment with conviction. But this one would not have met with my experience with that species though what you describe has great merit. The jizz and behaviour is very different - but that again is based on my limited experience.

Tib78 · Apr 2, 2009

Hi Phil,

Well I have never seen Thick-billed Warbler, but I think the bill should be shorter. It might sound weird, but I find that Thick-billed Warbler's bill gives a somewhat Lanius shrike jizz...but it's just an impression, and once again I only know Thick-billed warbler from pictures.

Check those Thick-billed:
http://www.nature-shetland.co.uk/naturelatest/pics/Thick-billed Warbler2.jpg
http://www.tarsiger.com/gallery/ind...country=&place=&order=lisays_paiva+DESC&sel=2
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/64/184019570_6383a180fa.jpg?v=0
http://orientalbirdimages.org/searc...=1757&Bird_Image_ID=17598&Bird_Family_ID=&p=4
http://orientalbirdimages.org/searc...D=1757&Bird_Image_ID=4019&Bird_Family_ID=&p=8

phil baber · Apr 2, 2009

Well i tried!
Those photos do show off that "shrike-bill" to great effect! And Sumit's comments...
I really DON'T think now it is a Thick-Bill.The grey lores may be worth hanging onto though!

Back to square one!

Can anyone donate an old mist-net to Sumit?

:t:

Sumit · Apr 2, 2009

phil baber said:
Well i tried!
Those photos do show off that "shrike-bill" to great effect! And Sumit's comments...
I really DON'T think now it is a Thick-Bill.The grey lores may be worth hanging onto though!

Back to square one!

Can anyone donate an old mist-net to Sumit?:t:

Thanks Phil and Tib78.
You know, if I had to put a finger on what disturbs me about this bird is that the race of the Clamorous that occurs in our region is a much slighter bird, and built on more athletic lines rather than the babbler-like prizefighter build of this bird. Here is a Clamorous I shot in our area:
http://orientalbirdimages.org/searc...1762&Bird_Image_ID=10450&Bird_Family_ID=&p=25
And Phil, thanks for the call for a mist-net - that would be handy indeed!

phil baber · Apr 2, 2009

It's startling Sumit. These warblers you keep finding that defy ID!
Your photos are always magnificent, but the birds always seem to be not of any known species or sub-species every time.
I, for one, am baffled. Could it be that you are truly photographing, as yet, unknown species? I lean more and more towards this inkling...
May i suggest that you post a request in every section of the forum.
I'm sure there's a ringer out there who has at least one old mist-net they can put your way.
In the name of Science of course!
And GOOD LUCK! :t:

Sumit · Apr 2, 2009

phil baber said:
It's startling Sumit. These warblers you keep finding that defy ID!
Your photos are always magnificent, but the birds always seem to be not of any known species or sub-species every time.
I, for one, am baffled. Could it be that you are truly photographing, as yet, unknown species? I lean more and more towards this inkling...
May i suggest that you post a request in every section of the forum.
I'm sure there's a ringer out there who has at least one old mist-net they can put your way.
In the name of Science of course!
And GOOD LUCK! :t:

Thanks Phil.
It is lucky for the forum that I only post those that I or others in India cannot figure out (most get sorted, locally and I only post those that don't)

But some we do figure out - like a new Large-billed Reed Warbler (a. orinus) find last week (image by my friend B. Das, attached with permission). This is the 2nd orinus from India and perhaps the 2nd orinus shot in the wild, ever!
Far as mist-nets go, I think I can lay my hands on some locally but I'd rather get scientists involved in this and we have started the ball rolling already. thanks for your offer to help |;|

Tib78 · Apr 2, 2009

Sumit said:
But some we do figure out - like a new Large-billed Reed Warbler (a. orinus) find last week (image by my friend B. Das, attached with permission). This is the 2nd orinus from India and perhaps the 2nd orinus shot in the wild, ever!

That is just AWESOME Sumit, keep on bringing up those rare birds of yours to the forum. I really enjoy it!

rockfowl · Apr 2, 2009

Impressive stuff Sumit!

For my pennyworth, My initial impression of the bird in question was Oriental Reed Warbler. I'm finding it difficult to judge the primaries properly from your images though I can see it all appearing to fit. I also can see some Clamorous jizz in there but this might be misleading. Anyway, a bird in taken in February, note similar wear - http://orientalbirdimages.org/birdi...es&Bird_ID=1758&Bird_Family_ID=162&pagesize=1

Scroll through, there are a few images of this bird

Is this a Clamorous Reed Warbler? India (1 Viewer)

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