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Another Bird ID - Washington State (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter Thorson
- Start date
Progne Subis
Bird is the word...
Okay, I'll give this a try Thorson. (But feel free to correct me if I'm wrong guyes and galls)
Anyway, 1,2 and 4 all look like juvenile European Starlings to me. As for the gull, I'm thinking a Glaucous-winged Gull. The back doesn't seem quite dark enough for Western to me, and I can see just a bit of wingtip on the left side, it looks rather grey than black.
Anyway, 1,2 and 4 all look like juvenile European Starlings to me. As for the gull, I'm thinking a Glaucous-winged Gull. The back doesn't seem quite dark enough for Western to me, and I can see just a bit of wingtip on the left side, it looks rather grey than black.
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Katy Penland
Well-known member
I'm with Tim42. Glaucous-winged is far lighter a gray on the wings/mantle. Don't forget that Western Gull's wings/mantle are lighter the farther north they occur. :t:
Edit: LOL, I just re-read what I wrote. I meant the farther north the whole bird occurs, not how far north the wings/mantle are situated on any one bird. 3
Edit: LOL, I just re-read what I wrote. I meant the farther north the whole bird occurs, not how far north the wings/mantle are situated on any one bird. 3
Chris Benesh
So much work, so little time...so let's go birding
Hi Gang,
Not to be contrary for the sake of being so, but I'm not personally sure I could eliminate a Glaucous-winged Gull from consideration based on the angle and lighting in the photo (it's not putting its best side forward). The entire photo is underexposed, and I'm sure that makes the mantle tone look darker than it perhaps really is. I cannot tell whether the eye is light or dark (light eyes being unusual, but not out of the question for GWGU and more typical of Western). I guess I might put my money on a Glaucous-winged or a hybrid with Western. The small dark tip to the visible underside of that primary does not look really black to me, but rather gray, and I'm not really sure from the lighting if it is even dark enough to suggest a hybrid. Just tough to tell in my opinion.
Edit: So in other words, I agree with Tayler! :t:
Chris
Not to be contrary for the sake of being so, but I'm not personally sure I could eliminate a Glaucous-winged Gull from consideration based on the angle and lighting in the photo (it's not putting its best side forward). The entire photo is underexposed, and I'm sure that makes the mantle tone look darker than it perhaps really is. I cannot tell whether the eye is light or dark (light eyes being unusual, but not out of the question for GWGU and more typical of Western). I guess I might put my money on a Glaucous-winged or a hybrid with Western. The small dark tip to the visible underside of that primary does not look really black to me, but rather gray, and I'm not really sure from the lighting if it is even dark enough to suggest a hybrid. Just tough to tell in my opinion.
Edit: So in other words, I agree with Tayler! :t:
Chris
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passavy
Active member
Hi everybody
I don't know very much about West coast birds, So I will put a joker for the Gull. I agree for the fourth pic as juv European Starling, but the shape of the two firsts does not fit with this species. The dark short bill combined with the rounded, small head leads to a new world Icterid, either a juv/1st summer plumage of Red-winged Blackbird or a female Brewer's Blackbird, hard for me to say with little experience of these plumages.
Regards
Guillaume
I don't know very much about West coast birds, So I will put a joker for the Gull. I agree for the fourth pic as juv European Starling, but the shape of the two firsts does not fit with this species. The dark short bill combined with the rounded, small head leads to a new world Icterid, either a juv/1st summer plumage of Red-winged Blackbird or a female Brewer's Blackbird, hard for me to say with little experience of these plumages.
Regards
Guillaume
Katy Penland
Well-known member
Stealing Chris's caveat of not being argumentative for its own sake -- and stepping into JanJ's gull territory where even the most intrepid o fear to tread -- I'm going to ask why this would be anything but a typical northern Western Gull.
I lightened it a bit in Photoshop and also circled what I think we're all seeing as a dark wingtip, which to my eye, is significantly darker than the rest of the wing. GW tips would be the same as the wing; W tips are always darker than the wing regardless of the geographically variable wing/mantle color. From my experience with west coast gulls, GWs are so much lighter -- in all plumages and ages -- than even the northerly Westerns, they're quite distinctive.
I don't disagree that from this angle and exposure, this individual may not be a competely IDable bird, but I'm really at a loss to see how this is anything but a Western.
What about it is pointing to a possible hybrid? (Not that I'd know a hybrid gull even if I saw one... )
fear to tread -- I'm going to ask why this would be anything but a typical northern Western Gull. I lightened it a bit in Photoshop and also circled what I think we're all seeing as a dark wingtip, which to my eye, is significantly darker than the rest of the wing. GW tips would be the same as the wing; W tips are always darker than the wing regardless of the geographically variable wing/mantle color. From my experience with west coast gulls, GWs are so much lighter -- in all plumages and ages -- than even the northerly Westerns, they're quite distinctive.
I don't disagree that from this angle and exposure, this individual may not be a competely IDable bird, but I'm really at a loss to see how this is anything but a Western.
What about it is pointing to a possible hybrid? (Not that I'd know a hybrid gull even if I saw one...
)Attachments
Chris Benesh
So much work, so little time...so let's go birding
Hi Katy et al.,
Here’s the crummy, “I’ve got to run out the door explanation."
The question of Western Gull versus Glaucous-winged Gull and their hybrids is one that West Coast birders have struggled with for years. There have been some good studies showing that the birds seen in Washington state and British Columbia have a pretty high rate of intermediate features, so high a rate in fact, that the form has its own name, Olympic Gull, based on the fact that it is most common around the Olympic Peninsula. If you consider Glaucous-winged Gull and Western Gull to be closely related to one another, there is actually something of a cline from south to north, with birds getting progressively paler as one goes northward, from the darkest Westerns in the south to Olympic Gull, and then to GWGU. Add to that the funny angle that this bird is at, and you’ve got a problematic bird. To my eye, the area that you’ve got circled indeed appears darker than any other part of the bird, but it does not appear black to my eye. That surface (and the adjacent underprimary tip) should be truly black if a Western Gull of reasonable purity was involved. It potentially could be (if the levels in the photo are really messed up), but it looks a tone of gray as it is. Anyway, primary tones paler than black are generally considered to be indicative of non-Western influence. Primary tips that are the same or slightly darker than the rest of the upperparts are okay for GWGU. Unfortunately, to really resolve the issue, one would need to see some additional features. Olympic Gulls tend to show a “string of pearls” affect on the spread wing reminiscent of Slaty-backed Gull, a feature not found on Western Gull. Anyway, that’s a quick rationale for my opinion. I’ve got to get out the door, so maybe JanJ or someone can link to some images of these various forms. I’ll have a look here again when I return.
Chris
Here’s the crummy, “I’ve got to run out the door explanation."
The question of Western Gull versus Glaucous-winged Gull and their hybrids is one that West Coast birders have struggled with for years. There have been some good studies showing that the birds seen in Washington state and British Columbia have a pretty high rate of intermediate features, so high a rate in fact, that the form has its own name, Olympic Gull, based on the fact that it is most common around the Olympic Peninsula. If you consider Glaucous-winged Gull and Western Gull to be closely related to one another, there is actually something of a cline from south to north, with birds getting progressively paler as one goes northward, from the darkest Westerns in the south to Olympic Gull, and then to GWGU. Add to that the funny angle that this bird is at, and you’ve got a problematic bird. To my eye, the area that you’ve got circled indeed appears darker than any other part of the bird, but it does not appear black to my eye. That surface (and the adjacent underprimary tip) should be truly black if a Western Gull of reasonable purity was involved. It potentially could be (if the levels in the photo are really messed up), but it looks a tone of gray as it is. Anyway, primary tones paler than black are generally considered to be indicative of non-Western influence. Primary tips that are the same or slightly darker than the rest of the upperparts are okay for GWGU. Unfortunately, to really resolve the issue, one would need to see some additional features. Olympic Gulls tend to show a “string of pearls” affect on the spread wing reminiscent of Slaty-backed Gull, a feature not found on Western Gull. Anyway, that’s a quick rationale for my opinion. I’ve got to get out the door, so maybe JanJ or someone can link to some images of these various forms. I’ll have a look here again when I return.
Chris
JANJ
Well-known member
Hi there Katy, and a good step into the world of possibilities and impossibilities.
You have lightend the image upp which makes it look a bit better, but the question is, how much better for Western? I would say that the upperpart tone impression is not entirely bad for occidentalis, but you know, if that wing tip would have been the same colour as the upperparts, we wouldn´t have bothered to think that it´s to dark for a GW, not from this image! So, all we have to go on (if we shouldn´t consider the deep pinkish legs and what it seems like (maybe wishful thinking) a hint of a pinkish gape, 400%), that makes me think of GWG, and which by the way does not exclude a hybrid, the gape colour I mean.
To the point.
I can see that the primary tips are a trifle darker than the rest, but are they black? They don´t look that black to my eyes. We need to see more of the underside of the primaries, because underside of prims. are never black on hybrids as on true Western. Om the other hand, the subterminal dark band visible near the tip seems a little bit to wide for
GW, more in line with Western.
Check:
http://www.ups.edu/x5930.xml
If one is to say something of that underwing tip, is that it looks like this:
http://www.schmoker.org/BirdPics/Photos/Gulls/OLGU13.jpg
Others:
http://www.birdinfo.com/A_Images_G/gullhybrids_image.html
But I fear it´s only speculative assumptions, because I can´t really be sure from the image Katy!
Suppose there´s no idea to come upp with Kodak-grey scales and all that, so I wount do that.
Last, It wouldn´t suprise me if another image suddenly popped up., showing a perfect Western (or an imperfect GWG, or a perfect GWG x WG)
JanJ
You have lightend the image upp which makes it look a bit better, but the question is, how much better for Western? I would say that the upperpart tone impression is not entirely bad for occidentalis, but you know, if that wing tip would have been the same colour as the upperparts, we wouldn´t have bothered to think that it´s to dark for a GW, not from this image! So, all we have to go on (if we shouldn´t consider the deep pinkish legs and what it seems like (maybe wishful thinking) a hint of a pinkish gape, 400%), that makes me think of GWG, and which by the way does not exclude a hybrid, the gape colour I mean.
To the point.
I can see that the primary tips are a trifle darker than the rest, but are they black? They don´t look that black to my eyes. We need to see more of the underside of the primaries, because underside of prims. are never black on hybrids as on true Western. Om the other hand, the subterminal dark band visible near the tip seems a little bit to wide for
GW, more in line with Western.
Check:
http://www.ups.edu/x5930.xml
If one is to say something of that underwing tip, is that it looks like this:
http://www.schmoker.org/BirdPics/Photos/Gulls/OLGU13.jpg
Others:
http://www.birdinfo.com/A_Images_G/gullhybrids_image.html
But I fear it´s only speculative assumptions, because I can´t really be sure from the image Katy!
Suppose there´s no idea to come upp with Kodak-grey scales and all that, so I wount do that.
Last, It wouldn´t suprise me if another image suddenly popped up., showing a perfect Western (or an imperfect GWG, or a perfect GWG x WG)
JanJ
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