Virtually nothing but Magpies...... is this a sign of things to come? (1 Viewer)

Josh Jones said:

What garbage.

Before saying things like this, why don't you put forward some EVIDENCE to back your claims?

How do you know it is Magpies? Please do inform, in my read through this thread I repeatedly see you blame Magpies for the lack of songbirds but fail to find a single piece of evidence, whether it be statistics etc.

Before you accuse Nick-on's example as being "weak", you should consider your own lack of examples and the strength of your own argument.

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Well Mr Righteous Josh, today is YOUR lucky day!!!!

I have news for you. I have actually just WITNESSED earlier today with my VERY OWN EYES something which might be of paramount interest to you and may well go on to further explain why the songbirds have vanished from my immediate neighbourhood. And in so doing, provide you with the "evidence" that you so steadfastly crave.

I was walking back from the railway station earlier and noticed, as I rounded the corner into my own street, two very irate and distressed blackbirds (male and female) desperately and aggressively mobbing a magpie which was flailing about with something very recognisable hanging from its bill. No prizes for guessing what that something hanging from its opportunistic thieving jaws was...... My heart obviously goes out to the parents who failed to harangue the predator enough for it to drop its quarry (it didn't) and it eventually flew off into one of the taller trees in the park that adjoins my street......with the ill-gotten gains of its latest hunting expedition: a newly hatched chick from the poor blackbird couple.

If this isn't a highly probable signifier of what has been going on in this area then I don't know what is. Needless to say, it pretty likely won't be the last I will see of this sort of thing either. Of course, it isn't conclusive proof of anything really, but I'm just pointing out that chick predation DOES still exist and MAY play SOME part in creating the situation I have in my neighbourhood - but that is not to say it's the ONLY reason - as I have obviously taken on board other posters' suggestions and theories.

But then again, I was only stating what I have observed and just putting forward my own [speculative] opinion. There is absolutely no need for you to DEMAND that I have to supply you with EVIDENCE to back up anything that I'm saying, simply because you certainly should not take my sentiments quite so literally (i.e. when I made mention of "culling" them to keep their numbers down) as to necessitate you posting such a harshly worded rebuke.

Consider your own reaction a little exaggerated/knee-jerk likewise.

Jack Snipe said:

Well Mr Righteous Josh, today is YOUR lucky day!!!!

I have news for you. I have actually just WITNESSED earlier today with my VERY OWN EYES something which might be of paramount interest to you and may well go on to further explain why the songbirds have vanished from my immediate neighbourhood. And in so doing, provide you with the "evidence" that you so steadfastly crave.

I was walking back from the railway station earlier and noticed, as I rounded the corner into my own street, two very irate and distressed blackbirds (male and female) desperately and aggressively mobbing a magpie which was flailing about with something very recognisable hanging from its bill. No prizes for guessing what that something hanging from its opportunistic thieving jaws was...... My heart obviously goes out to the parents who failed to harangue the predator enough for it to drop its quarry (it didn't) and it eventually flew off into one of the taller trees in the park that adjoins my street......with the ill-gotten gains of its latest hunting expedition: a newly hatched chick from the poor blackbird couple.

If this isn't a highly probable signifier of what has been going on in this area then I don't know what is. Needless to say, it pretty likely won't be the last I will see of this sort of thing either. Of course, it isn't conclusive proof of anything really, but I'm just pointing out that chick predation DOES still exist and MAY play SOME part in creating the situation I have in my neighbourhood - but that is not to say it's the ONLY reason - as I have obviously taken on board other posters' suggestions and theories.

But then again, I was only stating what I have observed and just putting forward my own [speculative] opinion. There is absolutely no need for you to DEMAND that I have to supply you with EVIDENCE to back up anything that I'm saying, simply because you certainly should not take my sentiments quite so literally (i.e. when I made mention of "culling" them to keep their numbers down) as to necessitate you posting such a harshly worded rebuke.

Consider your own reaction a little exaggerated/knee-jerk likewise.

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Jack Snipe,

Seems to be a small problem with your caps-lock key. And with your understanding of valid evidence. Yours is ANECDOTAL. If you think that magpie predation has a long-term impact on songbird populations you are just plain wrong.

Graham

PS - Can someone with more patience than me dig out the links for the previous threads/posts that conclusively demonstrate that magpie predation does not affect the breeding population of songbirds, and which explain the concepts of additive and compensatory mortality. Because it is bloody stupid to have this discussion again.

bitterntwisted said:

Jack Snipe,

Seems to be a small problem with your caps-lock key. And with your understanding of valid evidence. Yours is ANECDOTAL. If you think that magpie predation has a long-term impact on songbird populations you are just plain wrong.

Graham

PS - Can someone with more patience than me dig out the links for the previous threads/posts that conclusively demonstrate that magpie predation does not affect the breeding population of songbirds, and which explain the concepts of additive and compensatory mortality. Because it is bloody stupid to have this discussion again.

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This seems harsh and patronising to me, even without the use of expletives; since when did the rules of evidence influence posts on BF!

Jack states that...<<Of course, it isn't conclusive proof of anything really, but I'm just pointing out that chick predation DOES still exist and MAY play SOME part in creating the situation I have in my neighbourhood - but that is not to say it's the ONLY reason - as I have obviously taken on board other posters' suggestions and theories.>> ... fairly reasonable, surely?

Jack goes on to say...<<But then again, I was only stating what I have observed and just putting forward my own [speculative] opinion.>>

Seems as if he's not even entitled to that... :h?:

I think a little cool down might be in order here?

Remember, attack (for lack of a better word at the moment) the post, not the poster.

Quite right, KC...I guess it's a little late over there

Jack Snipe - the magpie theory of song bird deficits has been mainly disproven by research (see the Birdwatching article I mentioned above for good, succinct version of it - PM me and I can send you a photocopy if you want to read it as I think the new issue is out now). Seeing a young blackbird killed by a magpie is undoubtably a horrific thing to watch, but it's normal behaviour that songbird numbers compensate for.

As someone already said, the mild winter has meant much fewer songbirds at feeders nationwide. If given a choice, birds will feed in the countryside rather than gardens, and in mild winters food is abundant there. Magpies, on the other hand, are bolshy birds that happily feed anywhere, and even prefer the easy pickings of human habitation. Therefore you'll continue to see Magpies, Carrion Crows and other large, confident birds while the songbirds are feeding elsewhere.

This thread has got a lot more heated than it perhaps should, and I apologise for any sarcasm I've displayed previously. But, with respect, I think the evidence on the contrary provided by the posters here is far more compelling that anecdotal evidence. Seeing a magpie devour a blackbird chick is meaningless, because none of us are disputing magpies will take songbird eggs and chicks, just that it causes significant decline in songbird numbers. Sorry to repeat myself, but BTO figures show that magpie numbers have actually remained pretty level, and in areas where magpies have increased songbird numbers have increased also.

But I also think people have got you wrong about how strongly you believe the hypothesis - you were only making a suggestion based on what you saw after all not stating it was the absolute truth, but I do believe the theory has been blown out of the water, I'm afraid!

bitterntwisted said:

PS - Can someone with more patience than me dig out the links for the previous threads/posts that conclusively demonstrate that magpie predation does not affect the breeding population of songbirds, and which explain the concepts of additive and compensatory mortality. Because it is bloody stupid to have this discussion again.

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Hmmm . . . there's this one:

http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?t=28756&highlight=Kill+Magpies+competition

Jonathan

NaturePete said:

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAARGHHH!!!!!!

Sorry, cat thread flashbacks, get them every now and then

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The real conservation issue with cats in the UK is their effect on the genes of Wildcats: if you live in Scotland and have a cat that hasn't had its gonads whipped off or out get it done tomorrow!

John

Farnboro John said:

The real conservation issue with cats in the UK is their effect on the genes of Wildcats: if you live in Scotland and have a cat that hasn't had its gonads whipped off or out get it done tomorrow!

John

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Maybe we should get the Spanish to cull their feral cats in case they end up in Scotland...

NaturePete said:

Jack Snipe - the magpie theory of song bird deficits has been mainly disproven by research (see the Birdwatching article I mentioned above for good, succinct version of it - PM me and I can send you a photocopy if you want to read it as I think the new issue is out now). Seeing a young blackbird killed by a magpie is undoubtably a horrific thing to watch, but it's normal behaviour that songbird numbers compensate for.

As someone already said, the mild winter has meant much fewer songbirds at feeders nationwide. If given a choice, birds will feed in the countryside rather than gardens, and in mild winters food is abundant there. Magpies, on the other hand, are bolshy birds that happily feed anywhere, and even prefer the easy pickings of human habitation. Therefore you'll continue to see Magpies, Carrion Crows and other large, confident birds while the songbirds are feeding elsewhere.

This thread has got a lot more heated than it perhaps should, and I apologise for any sarcasm I've displayed previously. But, with respect, I think the evidence on the contrary provided by the posters here is far more compelling that anecdotal evidence. Seeing a magpie devour a blackbird chick is meaningless, because none of us are disputing magpies will take songbird eggs and chicks, just that it causes significant decline in songbird numbers. Sorry to repeat myself, but BTO figures show that magpie numbers have actually remained pretty level, and in areas where magpies have increased songbird numbers have increased also.

But I also think people have got you wrong about how strongly you believe the hypothesis - you were only making a suggestion based on what you saw after all not stating it was the absolute truth, but I do believe the theory has been blown out of the water, I'm afraid!

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Yes, quite. It HAS been blown out of the water and most people have completely overreacted to what I firmly believe is merely an innocuous theory simply based on insubstantiated observations (if that means anything). And to be honest with you I am slightly baffled if not alarmed at the amount of near hostility that some people here (Josh, bitterntwisted, etc) have resorted to in their responses to my very first post and subsequent replies. It's not as if I was trolling the place was I? Just what is it that makes some people here think they're of higher and mightier intellect or whatever by speaking in such patronising tones to relative newcomers? It's something I sadly see all too frequently on too many messageboards I post on these days: this apparent intolerance of other people to have views of their own, despite the fact that I have always abided by forum terms and conditions and have NEVER resorted to flaming or trolling of other users under any circumstances or posting condescending put downs of - or even cross-examining - others (as if one is almost in court standing trial) simply because I avoid any type of unnecessary confrontation anyway .....

Grousemore has got it in one there, the two main detractors here have even conveniently overlooked the disclaimer IN MY VERY OWN POST ABOVE which clearly states what Grousemore took the trouble to quote in bold letters... that my views are just speculative and in no way suggest that x or y theory is definitive evidence..... What is so wrong with having the freedom to express a view without hordes of [politically correct??] folks jumping in and chastising me for even having such a notion? And then for someone else to pick fault with me for using capital letters to emphasise a few words (I could just as easily have italicised the same words but then they may have taken me to task for that also) is just plain pettiness. |=(|

I find it rather sad that some can get so precious about things, as if everybody has to abide to one specific way of thinking or one specific train of thought. Well, I'm sorry to tread on delicate [politically correct??] toes by even suggesting that a "cull" is in order.....perhaps I should look both ways to see if the coast is clear before any other relatively negative words such as "cull", "kill", "horrible", "monotonous" or indeed "depressing" slip into my dialogue in case the bad taste police start knocking on my door with a view to apprehending me.

You may as well start wielding a new rule that if any thread should veer off topic (like this one has done at the top here - have a look for yourselves) then the instigator of the off-topic digression should be hunted down and have their fingers cut off for having the audacity to channel the line of conversation elsewhere. Honestly.....some people are just getting too precious for their own good.

Now I don't believe for one moment that it is I who should be apologising in this case. ||

I may not post on here as regularly or as frequently as many others, but it is at times like this when I really do have to question why I should bother continuing to do so if this is the sort of hostility and indignation I encounter in reaction to something that is so relatively innocuous and speculative as what I wrote at the beginning. Is it really such a heresy to some people?