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Anti-whaling petition. (1 Viewer)

BrightonBirder said:
Please tell us then what the Inuit of places such as Ponds Inlet and Arctic Bay are to eat if whale is not included. There is essentially char, narwhal and beluga with a few other odds and ends. One store in each town bring very expensive food in from southern Canada. Most certaily cannot afford commerical dog food for their sled dogs..
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Really, but they can afford bullets for their high-powered rifles & gasoline for their outboard motors? Some ways of life can no longer be practiced under modern conditions & the slaughter of large sea mammals for dog food is one of them. Canada's a wealthy society & easily commands the means of mitigating the economic effects of a whaling ban on the very small part of its population which would be affected by such a ban.

BrightonBirder said:
It is all easy for the realtively wealthy in Canada, England and the US to complain about Japanese whaling and elsewhere but we have the luxury to make codemnations about others that will never affect us..
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Spare us your crocodile tears for Japan! Like Canada & all the other major whaling nations, Japan is a wealthy country & the effects of a whaling ban on its economy would be minuscule.
 
"Really, but they can afford bullets for their high-powered rifles & gasoline for their outboard motors? Some ways of life can no longer be practiced under modern conditions & the slaughter of large sea mammals for dog food is one of them. Canada's a wealthy society & easily commands the means of mitigating the economic effects of a whaling ban on the very small part of its population which would be affected by such a ban."

Perhaps we should follow the American lead of extermination, reservations, unemployement, suicide, alcoholism, etc.. Yes taking away all traditions and the ability to support oneselves is a great idea.

In Canada we have moved Inuit around, brought them into (third world quality) towns, shot their dogs, forced them to be identified by numbers, destroyed their heritage, stolen their children and generally destroyed lives and culture. We now spend $35000 per Inuit annually and their lifes are still incredibly difficult. Not a pretty picture.

Your stance on whaling (or not) is not simply about a petition. It has direct affects on people.

Do I cry crocodile tears for Japan, NO, but I have spoken to researchers from Japan, read many of the research papers and taked to many Japanese, some who even lived through the war and remember General D. MacArthur encouraging a Japanes whaling fleet. I have also read Tim Flannery's comments on Japanese whaling in the Antarctic.

I would hope more people might get so informed before signing any old petition that comes along.
 
BrightonBirder said:
"Really, but they can afford bullets for their high-powered rifles & gasoline for their outboard motors? Some ways of life can no longer be practiced under modern conditions & the slaughter of large sea mammals for dog food is one of them. Canada's a wealthy society & easily commands the means of mitigating the economic effects of a whaling ban on the very small part of its population which would be affected by such a ban."

Perhaps we should follow the American lead of extermination, reservations, unemployement, suicide, alcoholism, etc.. Yes taking away all traditions and the ability to support oneselves is a great idea.

In Canada we have moved Inuit around, brought them into (third world quality) towns, shot their dogs, forced them to be identified by numbers, destroyed their heritage, stolen their children and generally destroyed lives and culture. We now spend $35000 per Inuit annually and their lifes are still incredibly difficult. Not a pretty picture.

Your stance on whaling (or not) is not simply about a petition. It has direct affects on people.

Do I cry crocodile tears for Japan, NO, but I have spoken to researchers from Japan, read many of the research papers and taked to many Japanese, some who even lived through the war and remember General D. MacArthur encouraging a Japanes whaling fleet. I have also read Tim Flannery's comments on Japanese whaling in the Antarctic.

I would hope more people might get so informed before signing any old petition that comes along.
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Well, this is obviously going nowhere. You clearly don’t care much about whales one way or the other & are just using the petition to air your grievances about other matters--the plight of native peoples & what you see as unfair criticism of Japan (now there’s a odd pairing of obsessions!). All I want to talk about, on the contrary, is the conservation of whales.

So, I’ll leave you to it.
 
fugl said:
Well, this is obviously going nowhere. You clearly don’t care much about whales one way or the other & are just using the petition to air your grievances about other matters--the plight of native peoples & what you see as unfair criticism of Japan (now there’s a odd pairing of obsessions!). All I want to talk about, on the contrary, is the conservation of whales.

So, I’ll leave you to it.
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You clearly know nothing about the issues surrounding the conservations of whales and do not seem to have read a single piece of literature about whales. You care only enough to sign a petition and move on.
 
Most of the "research" done by the Japanese via whaling is published in pet journals with no peer review. I have seen whole talks at the Biannual Marine Mammal meetings completely about how little science is going into these papers, and how mostly it's an excuse to find legal ways around the IWC. Beyond that, whale meat is not popular in Japan in most areas of the country, and the only way they can continue supporting whaling in international waters is via extensive government subsidies. I also will throw in that many of the scientists I have met in Japan are not in support of whaling.

FYI, I lived in Japan for a short time and work on marine mammal evolution in a professional capacity.
 
Mysticete said:
Most of the "research" done by the Japanese via whaling is published in pet journals with no peer review. I have seen whole talks at the Biannual Marine Mammal meetings completely about how little science is going into these papers, and how mostly it's an excuse to find legal ways around the IWC. Beyond that, whale meat is not popular in Japan in most areas of the country, and the only way they can continue supporting whaling in international waters is via extensive government subsidies. I also will throw in that many of the scientists I have met in Japan are not in support of whaling.

FYI, I lived in Japan for a short time and work on marine mammal evolution in a professional capacity.
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I’m glad you’ve finally come in on this. I’ve always heard that the so-called “research” was a mere smoke screen of little or no scientific value and it’s good to have this confirmed by someone who knows what he’s talking about. Since as BrightonBirder correctly inferred I hadn’t actually read any of the relevant literature, I didn’t feel in a position to call his bluff myself.
 
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Yep

I would also add, that from what I have seen the skeletal material is not preserved from most of the animals that are "collected", which from a research perspective is largely the only reason one would ever need to collect a healthy whale. any other data could be collected with biopsy harpoon (genes, hormones, etc) or photography (body condition)
 
In contrast, I do know a lot of important papers on developmental evolution, anatomy, etc which have come from the Inuit bowhead hunts.
 
Mysticete said:
In contrast, I do know a lot of important papers on developmental evolution, anatomy, etc which have come from the Inuit bowhead hunts.
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Very interesting. It’s nice to know that some good has come of the destruction of these animals. Why, I wonder, haven’t comparable studies been carried out on the Japanese material? Just bloody-mindedness on the on the part of the responsible parties or is there some other reason or reasons?
 
Well...in the case of the Innuit hunts, the whales are dragged onto the beach, and so if you are a researcher with permission, it is fairly easy to access the material. My guess would be that hauling a whole large whale carcass from near Antarctica to Japan, then transporting it and preparing it, would be too expensive unless it was something really really really special.
 
I think Morgan has summed it up very well. Hunting whales by First Nation people in North America is about survival - even if they are heavily subsidised. The hunting of whales by European countries and Japan is about bloody-mindedness. I am a frequent visitor to Japan and I have found that many Japanese consider the continued hunting of whales to be a deep stain on the nation. Anyone who knows the culture will understand what this means. Petition signed - not because I'm having a go at Japan, but because I oppose whaling.

Chris
 
Mysticete said:
Yep

I would also add, that from what I have seen the skeletal material is not preserved from most of the animals that are "collected", which from a research perspective is largely the only reason one would ever need to collect a healthy whale. any other data could be collected with biopsy harpoon (genes, hormones, etc) or photography (body condition)
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The thing I've always wondered when I see them holding up signs saying they're doing it for scientific research is: what is their research about? What questions are they attempting to answer that they need to kill so many whales to answer it?

If it's something to do with molecular biology or cell biology or neurology or any other branch of animal biology, aren't there other ways to do these studies, or is there something about whales that will give them vital information that no other organism (including microorganisms) will provide? As whales are genetically closely related to other mammals, can't other species be used as a substitute in genetic studies or in morphological studies (not that I'm saying other animals should be killed, but that it's not only whales that could provide data on topics like that). If there is something special about whale biology that needs to be studied, then why can't the tissue of one or two individuals be kept in culture and sold to researchers the world over?

Does anyone ever question them about what research they're conducting rather than just taking their claims at face-value - ask them for the evidence of the outcomes of their research and what value killing these animals has contributed to this?

They'll certainly not be investigating things like whale behaviour, as for that you need a live animal to observe!
 
JTweedie said:
Does anyone ever question them about what research they're conducting rather than just taking their claims at face-value - ask them for the evidence of the outcomes of their research and what value killing these animals has contributed to this?!
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Not to knuckle under to foreign pressure on the whaling issue has long been a matter of national pride in politically important circles in Japan, and this being so, I don’t imagine the Japanese whalers care if their research claims are taken seriously or not, but are simply complying with the letter of the regulations so as to avoid unduly antagonizing the IWC & various foreign governments. A great shame, & bad for Antarctic whales, but as always realpolitik rules.
 
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Just two or three points from the article posted by Morgan.

1 Biopsies and fecal samples are 'hard to collect' . How pathetic - basically saying there are things that are difficult so we shouldn't bother doing them. It is only by devising and improving 'difficult' techniques that scientific knowledge advances.

2 The sale of Whale meat helps pay for the expeditions. The amount of finance derived from the sale of Whale meat is either pitifully small - or there is a hell of a lot more Whale meat being 'collected', and used, than they are letting on.

The final thing that struck me was the phrase " ... resolve the scientific uncertainties and pave the way for a resumption of sustainable whaling". This is almost an admission that they will continue to carry out 'scientific' whaling until they get the answers they want in order to resume exploitative whaling again ( the claim that they want to resume sustainable whaling is patently false as modern whaling never was sustainable. )

Chris
 
If I remember well they have to kill more than 10 whales each day...That doesn't let a lot of times for scientific research. Someone know how many scientist are on the Nishin Maru? I've heard thre was only one but it's maybe not true...

Painting a big "RESEARCH" on the whaling boats and collecting a few interesting scientific information from commercial whaling doesn't mean this is scientific whaling...
 
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