mb1848
Well-known member
http://www.britishbirds.co.uk/lette...ile-and-the-scientific-name-of-the-willow-tit .
@#$%& "certain internet forums"
@#$%& "certain internet forums"
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The correct gender of poecile (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter mb1848
- Start date
Richard Klim
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What goes around comes around... :smoke:
[IOC, Cornell, HBW, AOU and CSNA/Dutch Birding currently treat Poecile as masculine (as per David & Gosselin 2008). But BOU treats it as feminine, following Sangster et al 2007 (BOURC TSC 4th report).]
[IOC, Cornell, HBW, AOU and CSNA/Dutch Birding currently treat Poecile as masculine (as per David & Gosselin 2008). But BOU treats it as feminine, following Sangster et al 2007 (BOURC TSC 4th report).]
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MJB
Well-known member
Given the extent of linguistic and philological argument in the paper, shouldn't that be "certain internet fora"?
MJB
Hear, hear!
MJB
Well-known member
Like John Cantelo's comment on 'fora' in the cited thread, it was intended as a gentle leg-pull of Andrew Harrop, whose scholarship I acknowledge and admire...o
MJB
Like John Cantelo's comment on 'fora' in the cited thread, it was intended as a gentle leg-pull of Andrew Harrop, whose scholarship I acknowledge and admire...o
MJB
Indeed, & I was just pulling your leg a little (& John's before you). That's the trouble with us pedants, we tend to run things into the ground.
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MJB
Well-known member
Indeed, & I was just pulling your leg a little (& John's before you). That's the trouble with us pedants, we tend to run things into the ground.
Reverting to a slightly more serious vein, I would be interested in the response of David & Gosselin in this case: they are not exactly slipshod in their approach...
MJB|^|:h?:
Peter Kovalik
Well-known member
:t: I am looking forward to it.
Parulini
Active member
I'm a renegade and a linguist, so I've already changed the three species epithets in my own checklist.
www.semelfactive.net/birds/NAmAves.htm
Parulini
www.semelfactive.net/birds/NAmAves.htm
Parulini
Paul Clapham
Well-known member
That's the trouble with us pedants, we tend to run things into the ground.
I don't think so... I had a look at the other thread (about "fora") and I can hardly wait to remind people to bring their "anorait" if it's likely to rain.
o
Richard Klim
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British Birds: Jan 2012
Letters. BB 105(1): 36.
Letters. BB 105(1): 36.
[Poecile is treated as masculine by Gosler & Clement 2007 (HBW 12), IOC, Cornell (Clements/eBird), Zoonomen, AOU and CSNA; but as feminine by BOU.]
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Richard Klim
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British Birds: Jan 2012
Fuller versions of the letters from David & Gosselin, and Harrop, have been posted on the BB website.
l_raty
laurent raty
This debate is not over (the genus is still feminine on the recent, 8th ed. of the British List), and as I just came across Kaup's work (finally on BHL |=)|), I figured I would provide a link to the OD.
As a reminder, ποικίλος, -η, -ον is a Greek adjective meaning many-coloured; this word is also part of the name of a famous Athenian covered gallery, known as "ἡ Ποικίλη Στοά", "the Many-coloured Gallery", or even simply, the adjective being used as a feminine substantive, "ἡ Ποικίλη", "the Many-coloured". The word passed into Latin in this last form, spelling "poecile", gender feminine, designating the Athenian gallery, or other adorned galleries similar to it. (A not-too-dissimilar modern case of a word passing to another language with a restricted meaning might be the English word "green", that in French is exclusively a noun designating a golf course.)
David & Gosselin (2008) noted: "in his original description, Kaup (1829) explicitly cited the Greek adjective poikilos ('multicoloured') as the origin of his Poecile.", and they argued that the name was thus to be treated as a "Greek word latinized with change of ending" (Art.30.1.3. of the ICZN), which led them to declare the name masculine by default. (Quite artificially indeed, and despite Latin words ending in -e never take this gender: they can be words of Greek origin, like poecile, which are always feminine, or genuine Latin words of the third declension, which are invariably neuter.)
FWiW, I'd like to offer an alternative interpretation, that I have not seen anywhere.
Kaup did not explain how he formed his name from ποικίλος, he merely cited the Greek word with its German translation in a footnote. In the vast majority of the cases, the names he proposed, that are or have their last part derived from a Greek word in -ος, have their ending simply latinised into -us. So one may be tempted to ask why Kaup acted differently with Poecile... It seems to me that Kaup would most likely have been aware of the existence of a "Latin version" of ποικίλος, and he may simply have chosen to use this dedicated Latin form. (In any case, the alternative--that he started with the Greek word, modified it in several way, and finally came up "magically" with a spelling identical to what is found in Latin dictionaries--doesn't seem much more likely to me...) If so, Poecile is arguably still the Latin word poecile (and thus takes its gender from this word), despite the footnote. Furthermore, I think that this reading would actually have to be preferred under Art.26 of the ICZN: the spelling of the name is identical to a Latin word, thus the name should be deemed to be this Latin word "unless the author says otherwise". Kaup merely cited a Greek word that is, indeed, the correct etymology of the Latin word that he would have been using under an assumption of Latin: I do not see that he "said otherwise" unambiguously enough to reject this assumption.
As a reminder, ποικίλος, -η, -ον is a Greek adjective meaning many-coloured; this word is also part of the name of a famous Athenian covered gallery, known as "ἡ Ποικίλη Στοά", "the Many-coloured Gallery", or even simply, the adjective being used as a feminine substantive, "ἡ Ποικίλη", "the Many-coloured". The word passed into Latin in this last form, spelling "poecile", gender feminine, designating the Athenian gallery, or other adorned galleries similar to it. (A not-too-dissimilar modern case of a word passing to another language with a restricted meaning might be the English word "green", that in French is exclusively a noun designating a golf course.)
David & Gosselin (2008) noted: "in his original description, Kaup (1829) explicitly cited the Greek adjective poikilos ('multicoloured') as the origin of his Poecile.", and they argued that the name was thus to be treated as a "Greek word latinized with change of ending" (Art.30.1.3. of the ICZN), which led them to declare the name masculine by default. (Quite artificially indeed, and despite Latin words ending in -e never take this gender: they can be words of Greek origin, like poecile, which are always feminine, or genuine Latin words of the third declension, which are invariably neuter.)
FWiW, I'd like to offer an alternative interpretation, that I have not seen anywhere.
Kaup did not explain how he formed his name from ποικίλος, he merely cited the Greek word with its German translation in a footnote. In the vast majority of the cases, the names he proposed, that are or have their last part derived from a Greek word in -ος, have their ending simply latinised into -us. So one may be tempted to ask why Kaup acted differently with Poecile... It seems to me that Kaup would most likely have been aware of the existence of a "Latin version" of ποικίλος, and he may simply have chosen to use this dedicated Latin form. (In any case, the alternative--that he started with the Greek word, modified it in several way, and finally came up "magically" with a spelling identical to what is found in Latin dictionaries--doesn't seem much more likely to me...) If so, Poecile is arguably still the Latin word poecile (and thus takes its gender from this word), despite the footnote. Furthermore, I think that this reading would actually have to be preferred under Art.26 of the ICZN: the spelling of the name is identical to a Latin word, thus the name should be deemed to be this Latin word "unless the author says otherwise". Kaup merely cited a Greek word that is, indeed, the correct etymology of the Latin word that he would have been using under an assumption of Latin: I do not see that he "said otherwise" unambiguously enough to reject this assumption.
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Richard Klim
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I have to admit that I'd long concluded that BOURC was clearly outnumbered and should graciously admit defeat. But maybe not...
Richard Klim
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Just bringing this thread up to date...
Dickinson & Christidis 2014 (H&M4 2): masculine.
Sangster et al 2014 (BOURC-TSC 10th report):
Dickinson & Christidis 2014 (H&M4 2): masculine.
Sangster et al 2014 (BOURC-TSC 10th report):
Nutcracker
Stop Brexit!
Keeping it masculine has the big advantage that the species names don't alter spelling from their old placings in Parus . . . but I guess practicality and being useful aren't allowed to enter into the discussion . . . :C
