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ZEISS DTI thermal imaging cameras. For more discoveries at night, and during the day.

Expensive compacts! (1 Viewer)

sbpbirder

sbpbirder

Well-known member
Hi again! Help and advice needed again please as I'm undecided whether to keep our standard-size bins and buy two pairs of cheapish compacts, or sell up and buy two pairs of expensive compacts - need to go round the shops and see how the binoculars feel of course, but need ideas.

So looking for *lightweight* binoculars x8-ish magnification what would your preference be, so I know what to go and try...not sure we can afford x2 Leica Ultras but if you can persuade me then I'll consider it. :) Thanks.
 
I have had a pair of Zeiss Conquest 8x20 for a while now and they are the ultimate pocket binocular. I tried them against the Leicas and Swaros {the Zeiss Victory compacts are decidedly less compact}, and found that whilst the more expensive ones were better they are not that much better. The rubber eyecups might not be to everyone's taste but they are very light and the Z fold makes them very small. They are great not just for nature but for sports, cathedrals and even art galleries.
 
You owe it to yourself to try a pair of the Bushnell Elite Custom Compact E2 in person.

sbpbirder said:
Hi again! Help and advice needed again please as I'm undecided whether to keep our standard-size bins and buy two pairs of cheapish compacts, or sell up and buy two pairs of expensive compacts - need to go round the shops and see how the binoculars feel of course, but need ideas.

So looking for *lightweight* binoculars x8-ish magnification what would your preference be, so I know what to go and try...not sure we can afford x2 Leica Ultras but if you can persuade me then I'll consider it. :) Thanks.
Click to expand...
 
sbpbirder said:
I'm undecided whether to keep our standard-size bins and buy two pairs of cheapish compacts, or sell up and buy two pairs of expensive compacts.
Click to expand...

I would vote to go with buying two pairs of "cheapish" compacts, and keep the standard-sized bins. I love compacts (we have have four of them), but I don't view them as a replacement for standard-sized bins. Or to put it another way - I think you will miss the standard-sized bins after a while.

Cheapish doesn't necessarily mean poor quality either. An Alpen Wings ED 8x20 is a pretty good bino, although it isn't as bright as a 25mm. Even an inexpensive Olympus 25mm mini-porro that weighs just under 10oz. is quite a nice little bin that although not quite as sharp as the Wings ED, is substantially brighter in view. The aforementioned Bushnell Custom Compact is an excellent choice as well. Bright and sharp, and with a focus wheel that is larger than many other compacts, but be aware that it's not waterproof, and it weighs close to 14oz. (despite what their website says).

Yes, the Ultravid HD is the best 8x20 out there, and I wouldn't try to talk you out of buying two of them. But a set of Nikon 8x20 HG's will make you just as happy, and for substantially less cost. However, I think that if I were in your shoes, that I would get a nice little 8x20 or 25 and try it out for a while. I would want to first see if the handling and view of a compact is something I would like, before I spend 2xLeica money (or even 2xNikon money). If you get a Nikon or Sightron or Bushnell or Pentax or Alpen or Olympus compact, you may well find that you will be perfectly happy with them, and can still keep the standards. And if you don't like them, you can easily sell them on the used market. Or you can keep them anyway, since it's not possible to have too many binoculars (which is what I keep telling my wife).
 
@paul2013 - not sure whether they are easily available in the UK have done a quick search and all results are for the US, do they have another model name here do you know?

@PhilR - yes that is the current dilemma. Having just come back from a sunny, hot holiday where we left bins behind rather than take them out with us as they would have been hardly used but a heavy carry in rucksack already heavy with quantity of water needed in the heat. Am trying to be realistic about our behaviour, I think I'd prefer standard-size and compacts, but wonder whether the compacts would in the end get most use as they would be more 'convenient'? We can't afford two 'good' pairs of bins each and so I think a pair of 'excellent' compacts might be the way to go. Getting to the age where weight & convenience matters most, lol! :)
 
Thanks typo - missed those, although microglobe is where the Nikons are from. :)

I think I'm edging towards the reality that we won't use two pairs and one good/excellent compact-ish (no more than say 400g) is the way to go. Was very annoyed, when walking around a very hot archaeological site in Turkey recently, not to have bins to see a couple of warblery things. But couldn't manage water & books & bins!
 
@mono have been reading the Leica thread, and am concerned re their CS and the fact bins have to go to Germany if there's a problem. So am wondering about Zeiss - but why not Victory, are Conquest really better?

Did see 'flare' mentioned as a drawback of the Zeiss Victory - what is it? Sorry to sound v dumb. :)
 
The Victory compacts just don't feel that small in your hand, whereas the Conquest are tiny, you can just pop them in a trouser pocket and dangling on a wrist strap you hardly notice them. They are a genuine carry anywhere binocular. They might not be in the top range of Zeiss or the same theoretical optical capabilities as the Swaros or the Ultravids but they are well up into the diminishing returns curve. When buying them I tried them directly against the more expensive competition and found the superior form factor outweighed any slight optical differences.
 
Thanks mono. The diminishing returns thing is a valid point for sure. I do like the look of the Victory's (how shallow) and as they'd be our only bins then wouldn't have to be teeny, will be interested to try them both out. :)
 
I enjoy 8x20 bins more than most, but I agree with the cautions about replacing full-sized bins if you enjoy the latter regularly for dedicated birding or when you aren't traveling. I think the biggest issue for 8x20 roofs is handing, closely followed by optical quality. Good handling helps mitigate optical issues and the inherent need to hold these bins precisely to get the best optical performance. For those reasons, the Leica 8x20 Ultravid is by far my favorite, and I like the BL version best for being maximally compact. The Ultravid can be held and focused etc in very similar fashion to full-sized bins, making it much easier to use in critical/difficult situations than most pocket models (see this post for photos and handling tips http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?p=2805064&highlight=imbedded+grip#post2805064 ). I like the focus on the Ultravid better than the Zeiss 8x20 Victory, but otherwise, I like the Zeiss Victory just as much for other handling characteristics and optical quality.

In my opinion, the Zeiss 8x20 Conquest (which I have tried on numerous occasions) is a piece of junk, or perhaps it is more fair to say that it feels like flimsy glued-together cheap plastic, I wouldn't pay Zeiss prices for its level of build and optical quality, and it is at the poor end of the spectrum when it comes to handling. In comparison to the Ultravid or the Victory, the optics are not as good (contrast, edge correction), eye relief though specced similarly is not as good, the fold down eyecups are awkward to use, the hinges are fiddly because they lack positive stops (not a fair trade in my opinion for very slightly smaller folded size compared to Ultravid), hinge tension is usually low so it doesn't hold IPD setting well, doesn't allow easy wrap-around grip because of hinge design, focus position and operation is awkward, close focus is much inferior, not designed to take a proper neck strap, and doesn't "hang" properly.

I totally know what you mean about juggling camera, water bottle, guide book, and bins while walking around archeological sites. The primary draw is the location and the ruins, but it's nice to get good looks at the resident birds, lizards, and insects as well. For me, the 8x20 Ultravid, kept at the ready, unfolded to my proper IPD on a light neck strap is the perfect solution. It is light weight, hangs flat and out of the way, and so is easy to forget until I need it. Most of my travel shirts have big front pockets, so when I want it to be a bit more restrained, or protected (when leaning over to look at things on the ground, or to keep drips of sweat or bits of my lunch off the oculars), I can usually leave the strap around my neck but drop the (still unfolded) bins into a front pocket with a single button or Velcro closure to keep it in there, yet easy to quickly access.

--AP
 
Hi Alexis, thanks for your views on compact bins - I do want to be sure I've considered all the pros & cons of just having compacts (or not) before choosing. :)

I agree that the ergonomics is important, I wonder if I may have a slight edge because I think my hands will be smaller than yours and may find 'fiddly' compacts easier to use?

Out of interest have you tried the Swaro again, I thought they sounded interesting too.
 
Alexis Powell said:
I enjoy 8x20 bins more than most, but I agree with the cautions about replacing full-sized bins if you enjoy the latter regularly for dedicated birding or when you aren't traveling. I think the biggest issue for 8x20 roofs is handing, closely followed by optical quality. Good handling helps mitigate optical issues and the inherent need to hold these bins precisely to get the best optical performance. For those reasons, the Leica 8x20 Ultravid is by far my favorite, and I like the BL version best for being maximally compact. The Ultravid can be held and focused etc in very similar fashion to full-sized bins, making it much easier to use in critical/difficult situations than most pocket models (see this post for photos and handling tips http://www.birdforum.net/showthread.php?p=2805064&highlight=imbedded+grip#post2805064 ). I like the focus on the Ultravid better than the Zeiss 8x20 Victory, but otherwise, I like the Zeiss Victory just as much for other handling characteristics and optical quality.

In my opinion, the Zeiss 8x20 Conquest (which I have tried on numerous occasions) is a piece of junk, or perhaps it is more fair to say that it feels like flimsy glued-together cheap plastic, I wouldn't pay Zeiss prices for its level of build and optical quality, and it is at the poor end of the spectrum when it comes to handling. In comparison to the Ultravid or the Victory, the optics are not as good (contrast, edge correction), eye relief though specced similarly is not as good, the fold down eyecups are awkward to use, the hinges are fiddly because they lack positive stops (not a fair trade in my opinion for very slightly smaller folded size compared to Ultravid), hinge tension is usually low so it doesn't hold IPD setting well, doesn't allow easy wrap-around grip because of hinge design, focus position and operation is awkward, close focus is much inferior, not designed to take a proper neck strap, and doesn't "hang" properly.

I totally know what you mean about juggling camera, water bottle, guide book, and bins while walking around archeological sites. The primary draw is the location and the ruins, but it's nice to get good looks at the resident birds, lizards, and insects as well. For me, the 8x20 Ultravid, kept at the ready, unfolded to my proper IPD on a light neck strap is the perfect solution. It is light weight, hangs flat and out of the way, and so is easy to forget until I need it. Most of my travel shirts have big front pockets, so when I want it to be a bit more restrained, or protected (when leaning over to look at things on the ground, or to keep drips of sweat or bits of my lunch off the oculars), I can usually leave the strap around my neck but drop the (still unfolded) bins into a front pocket with a single button or Velcro closure to keep it in there, yet easy to quickly access.

--AP
Click to expand...

AP,

I've read your many, many, many posts about the 8x20 Ultravids, and I still can't figure out whether or not you like them. ;)

Can't wait for the 2013 Compact Championship Match. Rumor has it, the match will be between the Leica 8x20 Ultravids (reigning world champion) vs. the Swarovski 8x25 Pocket (new contender).

Or is it not fair to pit an 8x25 against an 8x20? Is the 8x25 out of the Leica's featherweight class? If so, there's another new contender, who's young and ambitious, and also of Teutonic heritage, looking for a chance to prove himself - the Docter 8x21 compact (with 7.5* FOV).

I'd like to see that match even more since the Docter compact is only about half the price. However, the only person on BF who has tried one is Pier.

<B>
 
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*ding ding!*... you two ;)

Can we get the Docter 8x21 in the UK do you know?

ps I still like the look of the Zeiss Victory. :)
 
sbpbirder said:
...ergonomics is important, I wonder if I may have a slight edge because I think my hands will be smaller than yours and may find 'fiddly' compacts easier to use...
Click to expand...

I doubt it. You'd be hard pressed to find a stronger advocate on Birdforum for the legitimacy of pocket bins, and I get on with them very well. What makes compacts "fiddly" is that they are unforgiving of imprecise use, not their size in the hand per se (I find them perfectly fine in that respect). Pocket bins have to be precisely aligned to the eyes, which is difficult while birding if they can't be deployed and held to the eyes in a quick and repeatable way. Unfortunately, many have design aspects that undermine using a normal grip, much less the relaxed precision grip that they require for top performance. Regardless of one's hand size, a bin with, for example, awkward focus control (e.g. tiny, poor grip, high tension knobs), or poorly tensioned hinges that lack positive stops will undermine achieving a dependable grip for critical use or in the heat of the chase when trying lay eyes on a bird that only allows brief views as it moves through the vegetation.

--AP
 
I bought compacts recently. And while I prefer my full size binos, I'm using the compacts a lot. There's simply no good excuse not to bring them!

I went to a optics shop and tried all the models that I thought would be of interest. (Swarovski, Leica Ultravid, Zeiss Victory, Nikon HG and Kamakura [almost the same as the Opticron DBA Oasis].) I went home with the Leicas. Not that they were optically superior, but the ergonomics were unmatched! As close as a compact could get to a full size bino. (OK, eyecups could be better.)

After half a year I'm still very happy with the choice.

How this would help you, I don't know...
 
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vop said:
After half a year I'm still very happy with the choice.

How this would help you, I don't know...
Click to expand...
Looks like an invitation to do as I do not as I say? I'll drink to that B :)

Now any views on how the Zeiss Victory's appearance compares with the Leica Silverline or Ostrich? ;)
 
In my opinion, the Zeiss 8x20 Conquest (which I have tried on numerous occasions) is a piece of junk
Click to expand...

I couldn't disagree more I have had a pair for 8 years or more and have put them through all manner of abuse and they are still bolted together as well as the day I brought them.
 
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