10x and 12x SE's, holdability differs much? (1 Viewer)

[spacepilot]

Thanks for the input, edz. It's interesting that the 12x SE, with 20% greater magnification, only gains less than 7% of resolution hand-held.

I wonder what your other top-10 hand-held bins are. I couldn't find an article on CN about that.

Ning

 

[CLRobles]

Ning,
I know this is a old thread but I thought I throw my two cents in here seeing as I own all three and use them all quite a bit.
First, I have always found the most remarkable thing about the SE line up (other than the optical excellence) is its ergonomics. All three are very comfortable to hold because of the prism design. The SE's prism has that perfect "fit in the palm" feel. The 8's by virtue of it size are the easiest but the 10's and 12's to me are really pretty close to them. Yes the larger objectives do give a more forward balance point but to me they are still near perfect. If you put the 10x on the SE tripod adapter without the top clamp on they balance perfectly and do not tip forward. The 12x will want to barely lean forward on the same unclamped adapter. When I use the 10's they feel perfect in hand (just like the 8's) and are very easy for me to hold without shake for loooooong periods of time. The 12's I just shift my palms very slightly forward to where they are finding the new center balance point then they too are a very easy hold.... BUT!!!!! I do agree that 12's are not a easy hold for long periods. I can definitely hand hold the 12x SE's but they are much more comfortable off a tripod or with someway to brace or support your arms if your going to be there for more than several minutes.

Secondly, Optically speaking I think the 8x32 gives the biggest WOW factor and I am always thrilled to look through them but they are not the SE's that I use most. It really depends on what you are going to use them for.... If daytime birding is the only pursuit then yes stay with the 8x32's. What a thrill ride they are! If you are a mixed bag person like myself then the 10x42's are a clear victor in some critical areas like low light resolution and magnification. The 8x32's will give out well before the 10x42's when glassing in low light situations. I usually find myself out from well before sun up to well after sundown. I'm usually looking for game but I tend to wander, when scouting, in the afternoon and turn to birding then back to game at dusk and then become a star gazer after it gets black out. With such a variety the 10x clearly outshines the 8x and is a worthy addition to your collection if you also find you bin viewing as varied.

Thirdly, I know you didn't ask but I have to throw this in. There has been much consternation as to the weather proofing of the SE binocular. Some have chosen a far optically inferior bin to the SE because of the fear of damaging their bin in weather. This I can understand but I have experience to the contrary. I have used my 8's and 10's in the rain and cold quite a bit this year so far and they have been great. I am purposely using the 10x's this year over my Swaro EL's and Leica BRF's to see if they will fail! I have had the 10's out in the rain at least a dozen times and the snow once and the outcome was as anticlimactic as expected. They performed flawlessly :t:

Hope this was of some help.....

 

[Fireform]

FWIW, I've owned all of the SEs for extended periods and the 8x is the only one I really feel comfortable hand holding. I did an extended A/B with the 8 and 10x versions and found I couldn't see more with the 10x handheld. The 12 is for me really not hand holdable. I'm using mine off a monopod and getting a lot of joy from it. Again, only FWIW.

I've used my 8x SEs in every kind of bad weather and the endless humidity of south Florida and never had them fog internally. I just stick them inside my jacket when it's pouring rain. They're hardly the water soluble toys some people think.

 

[brocknroller]

Ning,
I know this is a old thread but I thought I throw my two cents in here seeing as I own all three and use them all quite a bit.
First, I have always found the most remarkable thing about the SE line up (other than the optical excellence) is its ergonomics. All three are very comfortable to hold because of the prism design. The SE's prism has that perfect "fit in the palm" feel. The 8's by virtue of it size are the easiest but the 10's and 12's to me are really pretty close to them. Yes the larger objectives do give a more forward balance point but to me they are still near perfect. If you put the 10x on the SE tripod adapter without the top clamp on they balance perfectly and do not tip forward. The 12x will want to barely lean forward on the same unclamped adapter. When I use the 10's they feel perfect in hand (just like the 8's) and are very easy for me to hold without shake for loooooong periods of time. The 12's I just shift my palms very slightly forward to where they are finding the new center balance point then they too are a very easy hold.... BUT!!!!! I do agree that 12's are not a easy hold for long periods. I can definitely hand hold the 12x SE's but they are much more comfortable off a tripod or with someway to brace or support your arms if your going to be there for more than several minutes.

Secondly, Optically speaking I think the 8x32 gives the biggest WOW factor and I am always thrilled to look through them but they are not the SE's that I use most. It really depends on what you are going to use them for.... If daytime birding is the only pursuit then yes stay with the 8x32's. What a thrill ride they are! If you are a mixed bag person like myself then the 10x42's are a clear victor in some critical areas like low light resolution and magnification. The 8x32's will give out well before the 10x42's when glassing in low light situations. I usually find myself out from well before sun up to well after sundown. I'm usually looking for game but I tend to wander, when scouting, in the afternoon and turn to birding then back to game at dusk and then become a star gazer after it gets black out. With such a variety the 10x clearly outshines the 8x and is a worthy addition to your collection if you also find you bin viewing as varied.

Thirdly, I know you didn't ask but I have to throw this in. There has been much consternation as to the weather proofing of the SE binocular. Some have chosen a far optically inferior bin to the SE because of the fear of damaging their bin in weather. This I can understand but I have experience to the contrary. I have used my 8's and 10's in the rain and cold quite a bit this year so far and they have been great. I am purposely using the 10x's this year over my Swaro EL's and Leica BRF's to see if they will fail! I have had the 10's out in the rain at least a dozen times and the snow once and the outcome was as anticlimactic as expected. They performed flawlessly :t:

Hope this was of some help.....

Charles,

Thanks for those observations. The SE's ergonomics are wonderful and accommodate a wide variety of hand sizes including my big mitts.

However, how steady a user can hold 10x or 12x, even with the SE's excellent ergonomics, depends on the steadiness of his hands, and that, as I've found, can change with age.

Yesterday, when I was young, the images in 10x bins was steady, as rain upon my tongue....

I could hold a 10x42 SE almost as steady as the 8x32 SE and a 12x50 SE almost as steady as the 10x, but "now I find, I've changed my mind, my hands shake the tens and twelves more and more," which is to say that in standing hand held resolution tests, the 8xs beat the 10x and 12x, because of my shakes, although I can see how the 10x still might be more useful for spotting big game at a distance, as long as I'm not counting "points".

Alas, the 12x is no longer hand holdable for me. "Mount or bounce" is my mantra. I can, however, still use the 10x and 12x fairly steady if I'm very well braced in a chair (i.e., my back and head supported). Dittohead for the 10xs. But for out and about, "the eights are better," to quote Jim Carmichael.

As far as winter, I'm less concerned about fogging them (I put them down the cellar before I got out to let them cool down slowly and reverse the process after taking them inside) than I am about trying to turn the focus wheel.

I experience "frozen focuser syndrome," or FFS, when temps drop below freezing when I'm using the SEs. In low double digits and in single digits, the focusers won't budge.

However, I have had my 8x32 LX out in cold weather, from 32*F down to 0*F, and the focuser is still buttery smooth. I still need "cool down time" to keep the heat coming off the bins from blurring the images.

I don't feel I lose that much in terms of optical quality in switching to the LX, in fact, I actually gain a bit in contract and color depth, however, the small, narrow LX is does not fit my large hands as well as the wider, curvaceous SE.

Put the LX optics in the SE body, give it an internal focuser and WP/FP, and I'd be as happy as a oyster with a pearl.

 

[Kevin Purcell]

It also depends on the grip you use the 10x SE.

I find the military (klingon?) aka thumbs up grip propped up by the heels of my palms is noticeable better with the 10x SE giving me a steadier (usable) image.

The other part of the old 7x/8x/10x argument is how far are the birds away and how long do you spend looking at them though the bins. The closer the birds are and the longer you look (e.g. looking at behavior rather than field marks over a whole morning or day). The first away, the more you want to confirm field marks, and for relatively shorter looks the 10x is good. Hunters might have different requirements (and perhaps the need for two optics ... bins and spotting scope).

I've been using the 10x SE this summer a lot and now "unprotected" against the rain during the fall and winter to answer the "how much do you have to baby your SEs" question. So far you don't (after 2 hours out in the rain). More (on it's own thread) as this progresses!

 

[CLRobles]

Of course both Brock and fireform are right. Comfort is very subjective and personal. What works for one might not work for another....

Brock, I completely agree with your assessment of hand shake. There are people that do not do well with a 10x and many that just cannot use a 12x handheld. For me I seem to be going in the opposite way || The older I get I seem to be able to relax more and hold higher power bins with more ease?

Kevin, I use the military grip with palms and thumbs up and elbows in that you describe. It works so comfortably for me its the only way I hold bins anymore.... Kevin it looks as if both of us are running the same weather test on our 10x SE's at the same time.... It will be very interesting to see if we both come to the same conclusion or if one might have different findings....

 

[spacepilot]

Thank you guys for the latest input. I have got a pair of 10x42 SE since the original posts, and have been using them for 13 hours in the field, according to my log. My experience with the 10x SE is in large part parallel with yours. The 10x have been a joy to use. They provide just that little extra power that I sometimes need to see the details of the water birds across the pond. When used in the woods, they are still very usable with 6 degree of fov that's sharp edge to edge, and a decent depth of field. But as CLRobles said, I find the 8x SE to provide by far the larger 'wow' factor. The field of view, depth of field, steady image, and lack of CA make them a lot better for general birding. In particular, with the 8x SE, I hardly detect any CA during most viewing situations. With the 10x SE, I can easily see some CA if I let the bird drift off center, or if I don't line up with the exit pupils exactly right. So in that sense, maybe the 8x is even a little easier to look at raptors with to my eyes. Still, I would bring the 10x SE if water birds are my interest of the day or if I go out before or after work.

Now taking an idea from the Leica Duovid thread, if only someone can make a waterproof 7x/10x switch power bin with the SE image, decent ergonomics, <30oz, and under $1000, I'll be set for birding bins.

Ning

 

[ceasar]

Thank you guys for the latest input. I have got a pair of 10x42 SE since the original posts, and have been using them for 13 hours in the field, according ............................................................

Now taking an idea from the Leica Duovid thread, if only someone can make a waterproof 7x/10x switch power bin with the SE image, decent ergonomics, <30oz, and under $1000, I'll be set for birding bins.

Ning

Dream on!:smoke:
Bob

 

[brocknroller]

Of course both Brock and fireform are right. Comfort is very subjective and personal. What works for one might not work for another....

Brock, I completely agree with your assessment of hand shake. There are people that do not do well with a 10x and many that just cannot use a 12x handheld. For me I seem to be going in the opposite way || The older I get I seem to be able to relax more and hold higher power bins with more ease?

Kevin, I use the military grip with palms and thumbs up and elbows in that you describe. It works so comfortably for me its the only way I hold bins anymore.... Kevin it looks as if both of us are running the same weather test on our 10x SE's at the same time.... It will be very interesting to see if we both come to the same conclusion or if one might have different findings....

Like they used to say on the Loving Care commercials, "You're not getting older, you're getting better."

I use the military "thumbs back" grip with the SEs when I'm looking up in the trees (saw some excellent detail on a Cedar Waxwing with my old 12x50 SE doing that).

However, it's not a grip I could hold all the time, because it forces my hands back almost perpendicular to my arms.

Do that often enough and I'd end up with Carpal Tunnel Syndrome.

That's probably why Napoleon was always sticking his hand in his shirt, to rest his aching wrist from using the military grip on his binoculars.

 

[CLRobles]

I have got a pair of 10x42 SE since the original posts, and have been using them for 13 hours in the field, according to my log. My experience with the 10x SE is in large part parallel with yours. The 10x have been a joy to use. But as CLRobles said, I find the 8x SE to provide by far the larger 'wow' factor. The field of view, depth of field, steady image, and lack of CA make them a lot better for general birding. In particular, with the 8x SE, I hardly detect any CA during most viewing situations. With the 10x SE, I can easily see some CA if I let the bird drift off center, or if I don't line up with the exit pupils exactly right. So in that sense, maybe the 8x is even a little easier to look at raptors with to my eyes. Still, I would bring the 10x SE if water birds are my interest of the day or if I go out before or after work.
Ning

Ning I agree without a doubt! The 8x32 is a better birding bin and does show less CA due to less power. When I would take both out to the wetland preserve in Albuquerque the 8x would show almost no CA when looking at geese on the lake. Their black neck against the light blue reflection of the lake was a tough chore for any bin and the 8x did very good job at controlling CA in these conditions. When the geese were kept in the sweet spot almost no CA could be detected and there was definitely no objection to the view. What a beautiful view!
When I would use the 10x SE in the same circumstance it would definitely magnify the CA. Now to me, with the 10's, the CA was pronounced but still acceptable. I still enjoyed the view but it was there and you could see it!
Now that you have the 8x and 10x SE you KNOW you have to get the 12x SE :-O.... Your hooked on SE's Ning :-O Don't try to deny it Ning, that is the first sign of addiction:-O
but really the 12's are still something to be sought after and really an amazing bin! But when talking CA the 12's due to the magnification really start to show. When I would turn them to the same geese they would really show CA and I didn't care for the view :C.
But this is just one area and one aspect of the 12x50SE and of the 10x42SE. They come into their own in other fields and excel much better than the 8x32 does. As you probably know I am a hunter and the 10's and 12's completely outshine the 8's in low light resolution and distant game observation. Remember in these conditions CA is rarely if ever seen because there is no drastic background lighting differences. Mostly just greens, grays, and browns.... And when it come to astronomy the 12x SE is almost as talked about as the 8x SE is in birding!

Like they used to say on the Loving Care commercials, "You're not getting older, you're getting better."

Wellllll I'm definitely getting older:'D:

 

[brocknroller]

.....Wellllll I'm definitely getting older:'D:

That's where the Loving Care hair coloring comes in! "Only your hair dresser will know for sure."

Funny how I can't remember where I put my keys (no, that was Steve , but I can remember the lines from TV commercials I haven't seen in decades. Women's hair color commercials, no less!

It's be'joy'!

 

[spacepilot]

Now that you have the 8x and 10x SE you KNOW you have to get the 12x SE :-O.... Your hooked on SE's Ning :-O Don't try to deny it Ning, that is the first sign of addiction:-O

Lol, it's funny that you said that. After I got the 8x and 10x, I almost pulled the trigger a couple times on the 12x SE samples I found on the internet . But I have already spent too much on bins this year. My wife said it's alright to buy if I really want them. Well, that just increased the guilt of spending money on my toys... (Maybe that was the effect she was after all along. ) In the end, there are things on my list that will help my time with the birds better than the 12x SE, such as a pair of warm boots, a better backup for the 8X SE than the Cascades porros I have, and something that will help me see across the pond better, a Canon IS or a small scope maybe. But if I ever get into astronomy, you bet I'll be looking for a pair of 12x SE. :t:

Ning

 

[spyglass]

Ning, I'd seriously ponder a Canon 15x50, rather than the big SE (since you already have the 10). There's not that much difference in 10 & 12....however, when you jump to 15, it's very noticable. Check the Canon thread, I kinda gave a rundown on my 6+ years with the 15....it's a dandy.

 

[jaymoynihan]

But if I ever get into astronomy, you bet I'll be looking for a pair of 12x SE. :t: Ning

That is what i got mine for, and all i use them for. excellent for that.

 

[spacepilot]

spyglass, yes, the recent Canon IS thread really piqued my interest. The Canon 15x50 will cost about the same as the Nikon ED50 scope plus tripod plus a fixed-power eye-piece (probably easier for my eyeglasses than the zoom). I wonder which one will be better overall for looking at ducks and shore birds that are 300-600 yards away. The bin offers better portability and pointability, but probably is not as stable in windy condition, and lacks the expandability of the scope.

Ning

 

[CLRobles]

Ning, I'd seriously ponder a Canon 15x50, rather than the big SE (since you already have the 10). There's not that much difference in 10 & 12....however, when you jump to 15, it's very noticable. Check the Canon thread, I kinda gave a rundown on my 6+ years with the 15....it's a dandy.

There is a sizable difference between the 10x and 12x in low light resolution. I know this has already been hashed out here but the 12's do resolve better and if you are in a position to where you have a need for that then the 12's do a great job to fit the bill. Also, jmo, the 12x SE is heads and tails better optically that the Cannon 15x50 and a better low light bin....

 

[BobinKy]

Chuck...

Nice report on your SE complete set. I have the 8x32 and 12x50. I have been putting off the 10x42. Something to do with having to go out and get a dueling pistol-type of monogram case for the three of them. Ha!

Thanks for telling us about your SE collection.

...Bob
Kentucky, USA