2016 UK Orchids (4 Viewers)

[jeffnsue]

Rich, if you look at his description of E dunensis he talks of sites in Scotland where DH & BLH grow together and hybrid swarms occur. I really don’t know where natural variation stops and hybridisation starts but he says genetic studies support the hybridisation theory. My Harrap is the second edition and on p120 Harrap says “At a site near Glasgow genetic studies have shown that DH is interbreeding with BLH to form a hybrid swarm”. There is a similar suggestion on the same page about plants at Bardykes Bing, near Glasgow.

Dorts on the other hand says "Jeff, it should be remembered that it is thought that all Epipactis species came originally from E. helleborine. If that is the case then all Epipactis species will contain some of the same genetic material!!! So it is not surprising to find plants of E. helleborine looking like E. dunensis, or any other Epipactis sp. for that matter. I have certainly in my time seen plants of E. helleborine that closely resemble virtually all the other species, some remarkably so.”

Yours, Confused of Chester

 

[muba]

Yes, the evidence points to BLH (or rather ancestral BLH) being a common ancestor of all 4 autogamous British helleborine species, yet each arose from a different evolutionary event. Thus it is likely that while BLH favours cross pollination, it may have an inbuilt mechanism for selfing that it can revert to should enviromental conditions prevent crossing. A question that could be asked is whether the autogamous species still retain the latent capability to revert to allogamy, or was that lost for good in each case. That would really confuse us.
As for hybrid swarms, that would knock the conventional definition of species on the head. A species can only breed with itself. An occasional crossing could be allowed but swarms? One can see how this is possible in Dactylorhiza, but Epipactis is a different matter surely. The rule book could be rewritten for closely related species, especially if evolutionary mechanisms come into play in order to preserve those genes that exist.

 

[leptochila]

Thus it is likely that while BLH favours cross pollination, it may have an inbuilt mechanism for selfing that it can revert to should enviromental conditions prevent crossing. A question that could be asked is whether the autogamous species still retain the latent capability to revert to allogamy, or was that lost for good in each case. That would really confuse us.

Perhaps they do. For those not on Facebook - a population of dunensis has been discovered in Warwickshire (well, less discovered, more redetermined as). These plants completely fit the bill except that they appear to start off (when they first open) as allogamous plants before becoming autogamous as they age.

Mark Lynes is the man to speak to about this. *Fires the Mark Lynes flare high into the sky*

 

[jeffnsue]

Hybrids

On the basis that many heads are better than one or two, can anyone help me out with these hybrids please. They were all growing in the Coronation Meadow at Treshnish Farm on Mull. I believe the parents to be a permutation of Common Spotted, Heath Spotted, and Northern Marsh Orchids, all of which grew in good numbers in the meadow.

All the ‘parent’ species were quite small, perhaps a result of the weather up there, with blustery winds blowing off the Atlantic a regular feature. I’ve been in correspondence with Dorts about these plants but I guess it is difficult to reach any definite conclusion without genetic analysis.

The first plant is the purple hybrid below:

Even I know this is a Spotted/Northern Marsh hybrid and I’ve tentatively called it D x formosa, the hybrid between Heath Spotted and Northern Marsh, partly because that’s what I want it to be and partly because Harrap says it’s the most common hybrid in northern Britain. Dorts reckons it’s more likely to be D x venusta on account of its squared off top. The records for the tetrad show both have been recorded, though more venusta than formosa, maybe because it’s better known. How does one tell the difference between venusta and formosa, given that both parents and the hybrids themselves are so variable? Any suggestions as to its identity would be welcome.

The second hybrid is the pink one, which I’ve called x transiens, Common Spotted/Heath Spotted hybrid, again because its what I want it to be. Both species of Spotted Orchid were present in the meadow but without exception were small plants, this plant stood like a beacon in the meadow, almost like a small hyacinth. My limited knowledge can’t see Northern Marsh in it but Dorts again favours venusta, though he does say his opinion might change had he seen the plant in situ. In case the leaves are of any relevance I’ve included a closer view of those too.

Can anyone help identify these plants, or at least give an opinion, as I realise definitive ID is almost impossible at arms length

Thanks in anticipation
Jeff

 

[rmielcarek]

On the basis that many heads are better than one or two, can anyone help me out with these hybrids please. They were all growing in the Coronation Meadow at Treshnish Farm on Mull. I believe the parents to be a permutation of Common Spotted, Heath Spotted, and Northern Marsh Orchids, all of which grew in good numbers in the meadow.

All the ‘parent’ species were quite small, perhaps a result of the weather up there, with blustery winds blowing off the Atlantic a regular feature. I’ve been in correspondence with Dorts about these plants but I guess it is difficult to reach any definite conclusion without genetic analysis.

The second hybrid is the pink one, which I’ve called x transiens, Common Spotted/Heath Spotted hybrid, again because its what I want it to be. Both species of Spotted Orchid were present in the meadow but without exception were small plants, this plant stood like a beacon in the meadow, almost like a small hyacinth. My limited knowledge can’t see Northern Marsh in it but Dorts again favours venusta, though he does say his opinion might change had he seen the plant in situ. In case the leaves are of any relevance I’ve included a closer view of those too.

Can anyone help identify these plants, or at least give an opinion, as I realise definitive ID is almost impossible at arms length

Thanks in anticipation
Jeff

Hi Jeff

to eliminate any marsh orchid influence in your x transiens you would want to know if the stem was hollow or not (solid in the spotted orchids, hollow in marsh).

Assuming you had eliminated a marsh influence you would then want to know the width of the leaves, the shape of the basal leaf and the shape of the spur. I spent a bit of time this summer going mad trying to identify x transiens, not sure how successful I was as I haven't heard back from the referee (Ian is probably still laughing at the notes he got!).

The new BSBI Hybrid Atlas has a bit of detail on doing some of these hybrids apparently, haven't got a copy myself.

Rich

 

[rmielcarek]

Rich, if you look at his description of E dunensis he talks of sites in Scotland where DH & BLH grow together and hybrid swarms occur. I really don’t know where natural variation stops and hybridisation starts but he says genetic studies support the hybridisation theory. My Harrap is the second edition and on p120 Harrap says “At a site near Glasgow genetic studies have shown that DH is interbreeding with BLH to form a hybrid swarm”. There is a similar suggestion on the same page about plants at Bardykes Bing, near Glasgow.

Dorts on the other hand says "Jeff, it should be remembered that it is thought that all Epipactis species came originally from E. helleborine. If that is the case then all Epipactis species will contain some of the same genetic material!!! So it is not surprising to find plants of E. helleborine looking like E. dunensis, or any other Epipactis sp. for that matter. I have certainly in my time seen plants of E. helleborine that closely resemble virtually all the other species, some remarkably so.”

Yours, Confused of Chester

Ah that hybrid swarm Jeff, forgotten that.

The problem with all these hybrids is knowing what is within species variation and what to look for to identify a hybrid, someone needs to write a book as most of the field guides just ignore them.

We've got some plants locally that most people thought were just odd E helleborine but when a DNA sample was taken it turned out their maternal parent was E purpurata.

Rich

 

[jeffnsue]

Thanks Rich, in my infinite ignorance I never considered the stem could be diagnostic! You’re dead right: we need to guidance here from some publication or other. I guess the BSBI Hybrid book is pretty expensive. Lang illustrates a few hybrids in the Wild Guide, but there’s no description just a list and some photographs. I don’t suppose I’ll ever identify these properly though if challenged to come down one side or the other on the stem I’d say solid.
Jeff

 

[rmielcarek]

I guess the BSBI Hybrid book is pretty expensive. .
Jeff

I think the BSBI Hybrid Flora is £45 or so and most of it covers other types of plants, orchids only form a small part.

The best guide at covering hybrids I've found is the previous Lang guide, Orchids of Britain, published by OUP in 1980 and even that is pretty sparse, all of them covered in 6 pages of text and no pictures.

Rich

 

[Bodhyfryd]

Ah that hybrid swarm Jeff, forgotten that.

The problem with all these hybrids is knowing what is within species variation and what to look for to identify a hybrid, someone needs to write a book as most of the field guides just ignore them.

We've got some plants locally that most people thought were just odd E helleborine but when a DNA sample was taken it turned out their maternal parent was E purpurata.

Rich

A book devoted to orchid hybrids would certainly be both a substantial and taxing undertaking for someone with the expertise and also very helpful for those of us who struggle to sort out even the more "obvious hybrids". The whole discussion here on hybrids and variation within species is fascinating, but when I read phrases in the various posts like "originally came from", "species variation" and "evolutionary event" I am left to reflect that the real marvel is how the species themselves emerged, not to mention the putative ultimate proto-species! Even allowing for the vast tracts of time normally posited within the classic evolutionary framework and the operation of micro-evolutionary mutations or even saltations, I am myself driven back to the mind and handiwork of the Lord, the ultimate Designer. Just to look at any of these beautiful plants seems to me to compel that conclusion, even without any other consideration. I realise that I may be virtually alone in that conclusion! Well not absolutely alone - Elaine agrees!

Martin

 

[CornishExile]

Rich, if you look at his description of E dunensis he talks of sites in Scotland where DH & BLH grow together and hybrid swarms occur. I really don’t know where natural variation stops and hybridisation starts but he says genetic studies support the hybridisation theory. My Harrap is the second edition and on p120 Harrap says “At a site near Glasgow genetic studies have shown that DH is interbreeding with BLH to form a hybrid swarm”. There is a similar suggestion on the same page about plants at Bardykes Bing, near Glasgow.

I've got a morning to kill next week in Glasgow, and was wondering about where to go for an Epipactis fix...

Any suggestions (and details) welcome via PM please.

Re Bardykes Bing - is the site extant? I'm sure I heard somewhere that it was being / had been 'developed'. Maybe that's my unreliable memory though.

Thanks,

Jon

 

[prhodes]

Dark Red Helleborine

I came across an area of The Burren, County Clare that seems to have a good population of Dark Red Helleborines and is just by the road. Perhaps may be of interest to people like myself that pass through, with limited time to spare.

 

[rmielcarek]

Unusual Helleborines #1

First locally flowering Violet Helleborine is this thing with a great big fat stem!

Rich M

 

[rmielcarek]

Unusual Helleborines #2

This odd pair of pale plants, with buds like red berries, and reddish base to the pale stems.

Unfortunately the red buds were chewed by something before the stem got broken so I didn't get a chance to observe the flowers.

Rich M

 

[rmielcarek]

Unusual Helleborines #3

This weedy pale little thing, only a few inches but with this pale, wide open flower.

And is the anther cap missing and that is a solid pollinia, or what are we seeing there, can't really decipher it?

Photograph 3 was taken in the morning and photo 4 a few hours later in the afternoon, interesting how in that time the sepals have started to close up,

This plant is only feet away from #2 above.

Rich M

 

[gpg]

On the basis that many heads are better than one or two, can anyone help me out with these hybrids please. They were all growing in the Coronation Meadow at Treshnish Farm on Mull. I believe the parents to be a permutation of Common Spotted, Heath Spotted, and Northern Marsh Orchids, all of which grew in good numbers in the meadow.

All the ‘parent’ species were quite small, perhaps a result of the weather up there, with blustery winds blowing off the Atlantic a regular feature. I’ve been in correspondence with Dorts about these plants but I guess it is difficult to reach any definite conclusion without genetic analysis.

The first plant is the purple hybrid below:

Even I know this is a Spotted/Northern Marsh hybrid and I’ve tentatively called it D x formosa, the hybrid between Heath Spotted and Northern Marsh, partly because that’s what I want it to be and partly because Harrap says it’s the most common hybrid in northern Britain. Dorts reckons it’s more likely to be D x venusta on account of its squared off top. The records for the tetrad show both have been recorded, though more venusta than formosa, maybe because it’s better known. How does one tell the difference between venusta and formosa, given that both parents and the hybrids themselves are so variable? Any suggestions as to its identity would be welcome.

The second hybrid is the pink one, which I’ve called x transiens, Common Spotted/Heath Spotted hybrid, again because its what I want it to be. Both species of Spotted Orchid were present in the meadow but without exception were small plants, this plant stood like a beacon in the meadow, almost like a small hyacinth. My limited knowledge can’t see Northern Marsh in it but Dorts again favours venusta, though he does say his opinion might change had he seen the plant in situ. In case the leaves are of any relevance I’ve included a closer view of those too.

Can anyone help identify these plants, or at least give an opinion, as I realise definitive ID is almost impossible at arms length

Thanks in anticipation
Jeff

For me the first is D.x venusta & the second D.x formosa

 

[jeffnsue]

Thanks GPG.
After my initial post I’ve been coming round to that way of thinking myself, at least it’s one of the options I’d not dismissed!
Jeff

 

[Ghostly Vision]

Perhaps they do. For those not on Facebook - a population of dunensis has been discovered in Warwickshire (well, less discovered, more redetermined as). These plants completely fit the bill except that they appear to start off (when they first open) as allogamous plants before becoming autogamous as they age.

Mark Lynes is the man to speak to about this. *Fires the Mark Lynes flare high into the sky*

See my post #352 Mike.

 

[Ghostly Vision]

This weedy pale little thing, only a few inches but with this pale, wide open flower.

And is the anther cap missing and that is a solid pollinia, or what are we seeing there, can't really decipher it?

Photograph 3 was taken in the morning and photo 4 a few hours later in the afternoon, interesting how in that time the sepals have started to close up,

This plant is only feet away from #2 above.

Rich M

On this one I see a viscidium, and a purpurata-like anther cap. Dare I venture the "H" word?

 

[leptochila]

See my post #352 Mike.

Ah yes, there we go

 

[ionh]

Here endeth the season...

CLT good at Holkham on Saturday -- 120 spikes at the site i visited.

Epipactis starting to come into full flower locally.