McShifty
Well-known member
so whats the point if you can't put it on your Self Found List 8-P
-
Welcome to BirdForum, the internet's largest birding community with thousands of members from all over the world. The forums are dedicated to wild birds, birding, binoculars and equipment and all that goes with it.
Please register for an account to take part in the discussions in the forum, post your pictures in the gallery and more.
400 In A Year?? (3 Viewers)
- Thread starter Ian Bennell
- Start date
Ilya Maclean
charlatan
Mark Lew1s
My real name is Mark Lewis
Eh?
The point of getting the info is that you can go and see whatever you want....and if you twitch something it doesn't go on the self found list.
lewis20126
Well-known member
The paradox of self-found is how to count birds that are habitat/range limited. How many people have genuinely self-found Bearded Tit, Dartford Warbler, Goshawk, Lesser Spot in their own counties? You need migrants away from the known range IMO. Amd anyone who is claiming self found Black Grouse in Britain is probably talking cobblers!
cheers, alan
Mike swims like a fish
Mike Hodgkin
Amd anyone who is claiming self found Black Grouse in Britain is probably talking cobblers!
cheers, alan
To be fair in Lothian this year I know someone who has self found a number of Black Grouse (he went out atlasing specifically looking for them) - they were pretty much, if not entirely, extinct in the county and have been for some time now. After a few good years in adjacent Borders region though we have had a few back on historic grounds this year - great news for anyone like me who hadn't seen one in the county before B
Brian Stretch
Well-known member
The paradox of self-found is how to count birds that are habitat/range limited. How many people have genuinely self-found Bearded Tit, Dartford Warbler, Goshawk, Lesser Spot in their own counties? You need migrants away from the known range IMO. Amd anyone who is claiming self found Black Grouse in Britain is probably talking cobblers!
cheers, alan
Been fortunate enough to find those four in Worcestershire where the first two are genuine rarities and the latter two are becoming increasingly scarce.
Brian
___________
Birding Today
Frenchy
Well-known member
I thought this would bring up the usual arguments for and against what can and can't be counted. We use punkbirder rules, and while they may not be perfect at least its a level set of rules. You can get incredibly bogged down in saying you have to find out of breeding range stuff like dartford wblr, but for me as long as its not a site known to yourself, you can have it.
Helsinki Birder
Stealth Birder
The paradox of self-found is how to count birds that are habitat/range limited. How many people have genuinely self-found Bearded Tit, Dartford Warbler, Goshawk, Lesser Spot in their own counties? You need migrants away from the known range IMO. Amd anyone who is claiming self found Black Grouse in Britain is probably talking cobblers!
cheers, alan
A bit ridiculous. Are you actually saying that you cannot count a species self found if it is known to be in a county?
Self found listing is more about genuine rarities. Breeding birds by comparison are (USUALLY) far commoner on average. I have seen these reducio ad absurdum comments before, like how do you know you found blackbird/robin/blue tit.
Feck off.
In regards to scarcer breeders...the information pertaining to them is on average more general. Choughs are common in Cork. Any headland or beach could have them. But you still have to find them when you get down there. You rarely have information in regards to those species, like "Scan the second tree from the left and the Pallas's warbler is in there" the same way you do for rarities. More often than not "known sites" are huge woodlands (for woodpeckers, breeding woodland species), or massive reedbeds etc.
Finding your target species is not always so simple as people make it sound.
Owen
Mark Lew1s
My real name is Mark Lewis
I think there's a big difference between specifically visiting a site for a bird that has been reported, and just going birding at a site where it is well known that certain species occur...
I might visit minsmere for example, and expect to see avocet, bearded tit and bittern. I could go there and see all of those things with absolutely no help from anyone, so surely they can be counted as self found birds? If I was going there, I'd be going cos I expect to see an array of wetland species. Just like if I went to an innocuous looking piece of farmland I might expect to see some grey partridge or tree sparrows (showing my age there perhaps!) and no-one would contest my inclusion of those on a self found list .
Are we saying that only records of species seen away from a site or habitat that is known for them are countable? in which case how do we deal with, for example, meadow pipit? Do I have to find one in tescos?
If I visit the moors to search for red grouse can I count that? People have known they are up there since long before I was born...
I know the examples are a bit extreme and probably make me look like a bit of a ******, but i'm intrigued as to where the line would be drawn...
I might visit minsmere for example, and expect to see avocet, bearded tit and bittern. I could go there and see all of those things with absolutely no help from anyone, so surely they can be counted as self found birds? If I was going there, I'd be going cos I expect to see an array of wetland species. Just like if I went to an innocuous looking piece of farmland I might expect to see some grey partridge or tree sparrows (showing my age there perhaps!) and no-one would contest my inclusion of those on a self found list .
Are we saying that only records of species seen away from a site or habitat that is known for them are countable? in which case how do we deal with, for example, meadow pipit? Do I have to find one in tescos?
If I visit the moors to search for red grouse can I count that? People have known they are up there since long before I was born...
I know the examples are a bit extreme and probably make me look like a bit of a ******, but i'm intrigued as to where the line would be drawn...
lewis20126
Well-known member
So if you are ill-informed about a county / local area (no County Bird reports!), you are at a self-found advantage. I'm struggling with the logic here Paul!
cheers, alan
lewis20126
Well-known member
Totally agree, probably the best way of comparing the worth of a SF list is the pure number of country and / or national rarities. In the context of SF, the commoner birds are unhelpful noise really.
cheers, alan
Paul Chapman
Well-known member
I do find this self-find stuff entertaining and I know the point that Alan is getting at. I really struggle with the concept of "genuine surprise":-
http://www.freewebs.com/punkbirder/selffoundrules.htm
The only Green-winged Teal that I have found was whilst searching through a Teal flock for Green-winged Teals. Similarly I once found an adult Sabine's Gull amongst a flock of Black-headed Gulls having walked from my home to the mouth of a river on my patch - about two miles away - checking every gull for Franklin's. (There had been a few in the country.) The Sabine's surprised me but a Franklin's would not have done.
I have never been surprised by a Waxwing. To be honest, I've never even been surprised by a Wryneck - even an inland one or the first patch record for 100 years. I've not even been surprised by a Dark-bellied Brent Goose flying over my head on my patch in June. So the only sensible conclusion is that I'm just not cut out for this self-finding stuff.
It all seems a bit self-delusional at times. I'm not sure some self-finders would be able to self-find a reason for getting up in the morning if they had my patch!
All the best
Paul Chapman
http://www.freewebs.com/punkbirder/selffoundrules.htm
The only Green-winged Teal that I have found was whilst searching through a Teal flock for Green-winged Teals. Similarly I once found an adult Sabine's Gull amongst a flock of Black-headed Gulls having walked from my home to the mouth of a river on my patch - about two miles away - checking every gull for Franklin's. (There had been a few in the country.) The Sabine's surprised me but a Franklin's would not have done.
I have never been surprised by a Waxwing. To be honest, I've never even been surprised by a Wryneck - even an inland one or the first patch record for 100 years. I've not even been surprised by a Dark-bellied Brent Goose flying over my head on my patch in June. So the only sensible conclusion is that I'm just not cut out for this self-finding stuff.
It all seems a bit self-delusional at times. I'm not sure some self-finders would be able to self-find a reason for getting up in the morning if they had my patch!
All the best
Paul Chapman
Last edited:
KenM
Well-known member
To make it more manageable....how about a self found list composed of just either current BBRC's or ex-BBRC's (all bloody rare..whichever way you look at it), and you could have several categories to suit all, tailoring it to Urban/ Countryside/ Coastal and 'Off Island'', County or National level, during the year or lifetime....just a thought.
Robin Edwards
Well-known member
My stance on "Self Found" is that I really only apply to a local area, my patch or my county of Bedfordshire which compared to most other counties has a limited species count a birder might expect.
Beyond that, the only criteria I apply is that if it was a bird I did'nt know was already there , I would consider myself as the finder irrespective of scarcity.
If I popped out to see something that I knew someone else had seen and reported, then clearly someone else was the finder.
Beyond that, the only criteria I apply is that if it was a bird I did'nt know was already there , I would consider myself as the finder irrespective of scarcity.
If I popped out to see something that I knew someone else had seen and reported, then clearly someone else was the finder.
I disagree with some of this, I had waxwings on my patch at the weekend and was surprised as they are not common down here, equally even though you hope to find a GW teal amongst a flock of teal it is still a surprise when you actually find one becase 99 times out of 100 you don't. Just because you hope to see a bird doesnt take the surprise factor away if your lucky enough to find it!
Paul Chapman
Well-known member
To make it more manageable....how about a self found list composed of just either current BBRC's or ex-BBRC's (all bloody rare..whichever way you look at it), and you could have several categories to suit all, tailoring it to Urban/ Countryside/ Coastal and 'Off Island'', County or National level, during the year or lifetime....just a thought.
Lots of people tied on zero. I've found/identified/co-found Great White Egret, Black-winged Stilt and Red-footed Falcon off the top of my head but I wasn't bothered about the initials on the first two and the third has never been submitted. (I've got a photo at home of the Red-footed Falcon somewhere but who didn't find one in 1992!) I have got my initials in a BBRC report on a Sardinian Warbler but I did not see that bird. A mix up on shouting across to the finder that his Sylvia sp. was a Sardinian Warbler (after a friend had nailed it) before leaving the site. I do now remember being genuinely surprised by a Squacco Heron but subsequently found out it had already been seen.
All sounds a bit complex to me.
All the best
Last edited:
Paul Chapman
Well-known member
I think that we just have different surprise thresholds!!
All the best
Paul Chapman
PS I was first not surprised by waxwings in 1982. They were in my grandparents' garden and had been described to me by my grandmother. I told her that she had described a waxwing and showed her the photo in a book. She told me that she thought I'd got it wrong. I went round the next day and saw them. They were a tick. As I say, each to their own but not for me!
Last edited:
