400 In A Year?? (4 Viewers)

[Helsinki Birder]

I do find this self-find stuff entertaining and I know the point that Alan is getting at. I really struggle with the concept of "genuine surprise":-

http://www.freewebs.com/punkbirder/selffoundrules.htm

The only Green-winged Teal that I have found was whilst searching through a Teal flock for Green-winged Teals. Similarly I once found an adult Sabine's Gull amongst a flock of Black-headed Gulls having walked from my home to the mouth of a river on my patch - about two miles away - checking every gull for Franklin's. (There had been a few in the country.) The Sabine's surprised me but a Franklin's would not have done.

I have never been surprised by a Waxwing. To be honest, I've never even been surprised by a Wryneck - even an inland one or the first patch record for 100 years. I've not even been surprised by a Dark-bellied Brent Goose flying over my head on my patch in June. So the only sensible conclusion is that I'm just not cut out for this self-finding stuff.

It all seems a bit self-delusional at times. I'm not sure some self-finders would be able to self-find a reason for getting up in the morning if they had my patch!

All the best

Paul Chapman

I think you have the wrong end of the stick there. Surprise regarding finding a bird does not relate to a "F*ck me...its an effin wryneck" moment. Just the fact that you did not know it was there. I.E. You did not twitch it.

Influxes of rare species happen all the time, and usually people rush out checking their local areas in the hopes they can jam in on the influx. But it does not always happen, and even if it does....you did not know it was going to be there...even if you said to all your mates "I know there is going to be a green winged teal at such and such an estuary".

Owen

 

[Brian Stretch]

There will never be a general consensus over self-found lists.

Finding scarcities/rarities is all relative to where you are. Coastal birders will have compeletly different expectations to inland birders.

Finding a Gannet on your local inland gravel pits may be a once in a life time event and if you aren't surprised by that, I suggest taking up another hobby!

Brian
___________
Birding Today

 

[Paul Chapman]

I think you have the wrong end of the stick there. Surprise regarding finding a bird does not relate to a "F*ck me...its an effin wryneck" moment. Just the fact that you did not know it was there. I.E. You did not twitch it.

Influxes of rare species happen all the time, and usually people rush out checking their local areas in the hopes they can jam in on the influx. But it does not always happen, and even if it does....you did not know it was going to be there...even if you said to all your mates "I know there is going to be a green winged teal at such and such an estuary".

Owen

Owen

I am being slightly tongue-in-cheek but the shorthand description for the concept does seem odd to me. I have a vision of people who take this seriously behaving like the Double Take Brothers!

All the very best

 

[Paul Chapman]

There will never be a general consensus over self-found lists.

Finding scarcities/rarities is all relative to where you are. Coastal birders will have compeletly different expectations to inland birders.

Finding a Gannet on your local inland gravel pits may be a once in a life time event and if you aren't surprised by that, I suggest taking up another hobby!

Brian
___________
Birding Today

Brian

I was once not surprised by a Manx Shearwater at Farmoor. The fact that I was not surprised does not mean that I did not enjoy the experience!

All the best

 

[Andrew Clarke]

I reckon that a bit of bog standard twitching is gonna be easier than understanding the rules of this deviant self-found listing malarky....

As for my 'Surprise List' - that's gonna take some totting up. Being a genuinely serious looking birder most of the time - whether ecstatic or on the pangs of despair - I could have some problems with this one... I may even have to take a photograph of my face at the time of contact to evaluate the expression (flashback to Four Lions - what an epic film!!!) - as well as having a snap of the bird for the listing police.

P.S. I would be genuinely surprised if anyone could train a crow to bomb a sex shop :-O

For anyone wondering what planet I'm on check the clip below (then whatever you do - watch the full movie!).

http://www.facebook.com/video/video.php?v=468446217792

 

[Nick Moran]

I reckon that a bit of bog standard twitching is gonna be easier than understanding the rules of this deviant self-found listing malarky....

Deviant or otherwise, its a wee bit difficult to do the former without someone doing the latter...

Are anyone's lists are truly comparable? Twitchers, patch-listers, garden-listers - everyone plays by slightly different rules. Heard only? Poor/brief views? Species you probably couldn't/wouldn't have IDed yourself / on the views you got, but trust the judgement of others? The list goes on...

I think it was Paul Chapman who said (in another thread) that its about competing against yourself. At a guess, I'd say that's why most self-finders do it. Some may be in it for the (perceived) glory... but like every other type of list, variables other than skill play a huge part in self-found lists (twitchers' lists = time x money x 'drive' ; self-finders' lists = time x location x 'drive' etc etc)... so any glory-hunters are kidding themselves to some extent.

 

[Alan Tilmouth]

Deviant or otherwise, its a wee bit difficult to do the former without someone doing the latter...

Are anyone's lists are truly comparable? Twitchers, patch-listers, garden-listers - everyone plays by slightly different rules. Heard only? Poor/brief views? Species you probably couldn't/wouldn't have IDed yourself / on the views you got, but trust the judgement of others? The list goes on...

I think it was Paul Chapman who said (in another thread) that its about competing against yourself. At a guess, I'd say that's why most self-finders do it. Some may be in it for the (perceived) glory... but like every other type of list, variables other than skill play a huge part in self-found lists (twitchers' lists = time x money x 'drive' ; self-finders' lists = time x location x 'drive' etc etc)... so any glory-hunters are kidding themselves to some extent.

Agree with 95% of this though I think self-found can have just as big a draw on your money as twitching, possibly even more so if you factor in the uncertainty of playing self-found away from the islands and 'national hotspots'.
Personally I think some self-found listers are in it because they enjoy the chase and the added challenge, almost as much as the occasional end result.

 

[luke01903]

What is the record amount of birds seen in one year? Soz i am on the dumb side of life.

 

[dbradnum]

Just read up the thread!

 

[ZanderII]

Brian

I was once not surprised by a Manx Shearwater at Farmoor. The fact that I was not surprised does not mean that I did not enjoy the experience!

All the best

Paul - the point as Owen has already iterated is:

a) you get up in the morning, decide to go to Farmoor, arrive at the carpark, look at your pager, it says 'Manxie Farmoor', no-one else is there, you walk 40 yards, scope up and find it, no self-found tick.

b) same procedure but you either don't look at the pager or don't have one, you arrive see the Manx and get excited, you think you just found an inland = self found tick. You found it yourself, irrespective of the fact that someone had already beaten you to it.

 

[Paul Chapman]

"I think it was Paul Chapman who said (in another thread) that its about competing against yourself. At a guess, I'd say that's why most self-finders do it. Some may be in it for the (perceived) glory... but like every other type of list, variables other than skill play a huge part in self-found lists (twitchers' lists = time x money x 'drive' ; self-finders' lists = time x location x 'drive' etc etc)... so any glory-hunters are kidding themselves to some extent."

Nick/Alan

I agree with the majority of what you have written and Nick - yes I recognse that comment! I believe it to be true.

Every respect to those that love finding birds. I do as well and you are almost certainly right about the majority of those - as I believe that I am right about the majority of twitchers. Indeed, I suspect virtually all of us fall into both camps. But there is some pious nonsense spouted on the subject and a reasonable number of glory-hunters out there that seem to use a 'self-found list' as an extension of their twitcher-bashing or an attempt to draw attention to themselves. I suspect that as a concept it was simply not on the radar of the vast majority of my fellow twitchers who got into that aspect of their hobby as a result of Birdline. The 'fodder' of self-found lists were not twitched but bumped into at various sites over the course of a year. I can honestly say that I do not know what I have self-found.

If I tried to work it out, I probably self-found more during the four years when I did most of my twitching between 1988 and 1991 when I was birding throughout the country than since I have been sticking (in the main) to a rather unproductive patch. The vast majority of my Patch list is certainly self-found.

All the best

 

[Paul Chapman]

Paul - the point as Owen has already iterated is:

a) you get up in the morning, decide to go to Farmoor, arrive at the carpark, look at your pager, it says 'Manxie Farmoor', no-one else is there, you walk 40 yards, scope up and find it, no self-found tick.

b) same procedure but you either don't look at the pager or don't have one, you arrive see the Manx and get excited, you think you just found an inland = self found tick. You found it yourself, irrespective of the fact that someone had already beaten you to it.

ZanderII

I do get it! I just do not see the increased value perceived by some in (b) as opposed to (a). I can assure you that I'd never twitch a Manxie at Farmoor - no disrepect to Nic et al!

all the best

 

[timmyjones]

Brian

I was once not surprised by a Manx Shearwater at Farmoor. The fact that I was not surprised does not mean that I did not enjoy the experience!

All the best

You sound like the most boring birdwatcher ever...

 

[Paul Chapman]

You sound like the most boring birdwatcher ever...

That's for others to say!! I just do not equate an adrenalin-rush with 'surprise'. I think the biggest adrenalin rush I have had (associated with birds!) was probably when we picked up a Fea's Petrel from the Rosslare to Pembroke ferry having taken the trip in the hope of seeing it. It had been seen twice already over the previous days - once from land and once from the ferry. I twitched that bird.

I really enjoy my hobby and I am very passionate about it.

All the best

 

[Johnny Allan]

Hi there,

I'm in the final weeks of doing a Surrey year list. I have just broken my old record of 195, which may not seem many, compared to the big coastal counties, but is not bad for an landlocked inland county. To get the highest list possible in Surrey, you have to put in a lot of time on your patch (which I do anyway). You will find a lot of birds doing this but other patch colleagues will find their share, (sometimes a split second before you, if it's a flyover). You also rely on others finding good birds elsewhere in the county.

I was going to do a breakdown of self-found birds at the end of the year but reading this interesting thread has made me question what is a self found bird ?

I go to see Marsh Tit where I know there are Marsh Tit and find one easily, is this less self found than going to look for another species elsewhere and finding a Marsh Tit where I wouldn't have specifically bothered looking for one ? Willow Tits (now a Surrey rarity), were reported recently, I spent six hours, looking in the woods where they were reported without luck but, if i'd found one after six hours, would that be any less self found than going to woods where Marsh Tit are (regularly) reported, and 'finding' one ?

There are various arguments about what is self found or not self found here but the rules are 'there are no rules'. Finding what are considered 'good' birds is also relative. Some people boast about the birds they've self found but often, when you look at where, it's no surprise. I'm sure that if i'd put in fifty plus hours a week at selected west coast of Ireland, or similar other British, hotspots this autumn instead of Beddington, I may have found more. It's not so easy in a concrete surrounded suburban sewage farm/landfill site in South London where Coal Tit is pretty scarce and I'd take my hat off to anyone who could visit and locate small flocks of Buff-breasted Sandpiper or the odd Semi-p etc. Having said this, I like doing what I do but I will never self-find as much as others who spend more time in migration/rarity hotspots or have a patch in a much better geographical location.

People here have put forward different ways of applying rules to self-found but will this ever seriously work ? Has anybody here actually done an all out national self found year list ? What rules did you apply ?

Anyway, there are still birds that I'm looking for in Surrey this year but if you find any on the list from the link below, let me know ! As I often say, 'I don't care who finds it, as long as I see it'

http://surreybirding.blogspot.com/

 

[Alan Tilmouth]

The 'fodder' of self-found lists were not twitched but bumped into at various sites over the course of a year.

I don't think that has changed too much Paul, I think that for many common resident species they happen when they happen and unless individuals are involved in a competitive challenge of some description be it patch or county I doubt many set out to twitch them.

 

[Helsinki Birder]

Hi there,

I'm in the final weeks of doing a Surrey year list. I have just broken my old record of 195, which may not seem many, compared to the big coastal counties, but is not bad for an landlocked inland county. To get the highest list possible in Surrey, you have to put in a lot of time on your patch (which I do anyway). You will find a lot of birds doing this but other patch colleagues will find their share, (sometimes a split second before you, if it's a flyover). You also rely on others finding good birds elsewhere in the county.

I was going to do a breakdown of self-found birds at the end of the year but reading this interesting thread has made me question what is a self found bird ?

I go to see Marsh Tit where I know there are Marsh Tit and find one easily, is this less self found than going to look for another species elsewhere and finding a Marsh Tit where I wouldn't have specifically bothered looking for one ? Willow Tits (now a Surrey rarity), were reported recently, I spent six hours, looking in the woods where they were reported without luck but, if i'd found one after six hours, would that be any less self found than going to woods where Marsh Tit are (regularly) reported, and 'finding' one ?

There are various arguments about what is self found or not self found here but the rules are 'there are no rules'. Finding what are considered 'good' birds is also relative. Some people boast about the birds they've self found but often, when you look at where, it's no surprise. I'm sure that if i'd put in fifty plus hours a week at selected west coast of Ireland, or similar other British, hotspots this autumn instead of Beddington, I may have found more. It's not so easy in a concrete surrounded suburban sewage farm/landfill site in South London where Coal Tit is pretty scarce and I'd take my hat off to anyone who could visit and locate small flocks of Buff-breasted Sandpiper or the odd Semi-p etc. Having said this, I like doing what I do but I will never self-find as much as others who spend more time in migration/rarity hotspots or have a patch in a much better geographical location.

People here have put forward different ways of applying rules to self-found but will this ever seriously work ? Has anybody here actually done an all out national self found year list ? What rules did you apply ?

Anyway, there are still birds that I'm looking for in Surrey this year but if you find any on the list from the link below, let me know ! As I often say, 'I don't care who finds it, as long as I see it'

http://surreybirding.blogspot.com/

Thread prompted me to do a quick count. 220 species self found this year...and that's in Ireland. Britain should be able to manage more with all it's extra species.

No offence Johnny, but I have heard this "If I spent more time in your area/hotspot I would find more" argument before.

Yes there are undoubted areas that a better than others for producing birds. No argument there.

But I firmly believe that if more birders put the same amount of time into finding birds as they did into twitching birds then it would be a very different world.

In my experience however, many birders reserve their time off for twitching at the prime times of year/ putting themselves on prime migration spots at the right times of year, rather than putting in a consistent effort throughout the year.

Owen

 

[mickbe74]

I have so little time to go birding(one full day a month usually) that there's no way i'm going to go down the local woods in the hope of a self found rarity,bearing in mind where i live isn't the best for birding,the best i have ever managed is Waxwing a few times allways whilst driving.For me it's a few days research before hand trying to find out the milage,possibility of bird sticking,what else is in the area etc to get new ticks.
My modest life list would be significantly lower if it was not for standing on the shoulders of giants.

 

[Chris Bell]

I'm with Johnny Allan with this one.. It's bloody hard work finding rares inland. I keep a list of birds seen within 5 miles of my house and after almost 30 years it's stuck on 199, around 193 of which are self-found. I've also put lots of local hrs in on the coast too this autumn and found half a dozen Yellow-brows and a Wryneck. This isn't down to my ability as an observer, the birds just weren't there. Perhaps I should have gone to Shetland for easy meat and become an allegedly better observer . It's all relative...

 

[Frenchy]

I honestly don't see why so many people are confused by this. It's really very simple, but if you don't agree with the concept, then that's absolutely fine and dandy. And just to recap on the thread for those who haven't read it, punkbirder rules apply. Simple!

For example, you can't count bittern at minsmere because we all know they are there, they're even written on the sightings board. You could count one in the Broads, as you would simply be putting yourself in the right habitat, without really knowing where they are. That strikes me as an obvious distinction, and all this talk of meadow pipits in Tescos is just over thinking it IMO.