400 In A Year?? (2 Viewers)

[KenM]

Brian

I was once not surprised by a Manx Shearwater at Farmoor. The fact that I was not surprised does not mean that I did not enjoy the experience!

All the best

I don't understand this ''laid back..yawn..yawn'' response, to something that clearly isn't of a regular occurence. I'd have thought that finding a rare bird is the core drive for most birders? Whether it be from a National or local perspective...also being ''unsure of what one has found''. Frankly I find that one hard to swallow...(particularly if it's Red-rumped or Cliff). I can remember without too much prompting all the rare (National/local) birds that I have found!...and believe me, the accompanying adrenalin rush can last a long time!..putting alcohol and illegal substances into the shade. If you haven't had the good fortune to find any rares that give you the challenge/aesthetic buzz, then may I extend my sympathy, perhaps one day you might enjoy the ''what the f***k is that!'' experience as you dodder round your patch.

cheers

 

[Brian Stretch]

I don't understand this ''laid back..yawn..yawn'' response, to something that clearly isn't of a regular occurence. I'd have thought that finding a rare bird is the core drive for most birders? Whether it be from a National or local perspective...also being ''unsure of what one has found''. Frankly I find that one hard to swallow...(particularly if it's Red-rumped or Cliff). I can remember without too much prompting all the rare (National/local) birds that I have found!...and believe me, the accompanying adrenalin rush can last a long time!..putting alcohol and illegal substances into the shade. If you haven't had the good fortune to find any rares that give you the challenge/aesthetic buzz, then may I extend my sympathy, perhaps one day you might enjoy the ''what the f***k is that!'' experience as you dodder round your patch.

cheers

I agree, particularly in regard to your first line.

My main motivation for going out birding is in the hope of finding the unsual and while most of my opportunities for this are at inland sites that doesn't mean there aren't good birds to be found, either at a local or national level.

Inland birding is much harder work than heading for the coast, but the personal rewards can be just as satisfying. I get far more satisfaction out of finding say, a Twite at the local gravel pits over finding a Wryneck in Norfolk.

Brian
___________
Birding Today

 

[Paul Chapman]

"I don't understand this ''laid back..yawn..yawn'' response, to something that clearly isn't of a regular occurence."

FFS - I did not yawn. I thoroughly enjoyed it but in the circumstances, I was not surprised by an inland seabird given recent weather and occurrences. This bizarre expression of "genuine surprise" seems as Alan has stated to be predicated on a lack of knowledge about birds. And as for saying that you'd be surprised about a Bittern in the Broads - fine if that floats your boat! To me it all seems very artificial and that's not an invitation for someone to explain the rules to me (again).

All the best

Paul Chapman

 

[Paul Chapman]

"If you haven't had the good fortune to find any rares that give you the challenge/aesthetic buzz, then may I extend my sympathy"

A few challenges and a few buzzes but plenty of those on twitches as well thanks.

All the best

Paul Chapman

 

[ZanderII]

This bizarre expression of "genuine surprise" seems as Alan has stated to be predicated on a lack of knowledge about birds.

No it isn't!!! Strewth....

Its a lack of knowledge on what everyone else is seeing on any given day at a given site.

Basically we are talking about rare birds, stuff like Bittern might be 'problematic' as one could argue that all of Norfolk is good habitat for Bittern, but who wouldn't be surprised to see one flying in Kings Lynn town centre for instance?

Taken to its logical contribution your argument means that anyone finding a Dusky Warbler today can't have it as several have already been found....

 

[Paul Chapman]

Taken to its logical contribution your argument means that anyone finding a Dusky Warbler today can't have it as several have already been found....

ZanderII

They can have whatever they want! I really totally and utterly do not care. I have never said they can't have anything. People can put whatever they want on whatever lists they want. I get totally and utterly disillusioned by this desperate desire by some to say mine's bigger than yours or I'm better than you or X is better than Y.

But bottom line is that some will be more surprised than others and the less you know the more surprised you will be. Personally if I had found a Dusky Warbler at Holkham, the day of the Rufous-tailed Robin dip, I would not have been particularly surprised - genuinely or otherwise!

All the very best for your birding

 

[Paul Chapman]

Paul - the point as Owen has already iterated is:

a) you get up in the morning, decide to go to Farmoor, arrive at the carpark, look at your pager, it says 'Manxie Farmoor', no-one else is there, you walk 40 yards, scope up and find it, no self-found tick.

b) same procedure but you either don't look at the pager or don't have one, you arrive see the Manx and get excited, you think you just found an inland = self found tick. You found it yourself, irrespective of the fact that someone had already beaten you to it.

Similarly:-

"For example, you can't count bittern at minsmere because we all know they are there, they're even written on the sightings board. You could count one in the Broads, as you would simply be putting yourself in the right habitat, without really knowing where they are."


I think that I’ve finally worked it out. My problem isn’t solely with the expression ‘genuine surprise’ but the fact that someone gets more pleasure or value out of Manxie (b) rather than Manxie (a) or Bittern (b) rather than Bittern (a).

I do not keep such a list so its simply not relevant to me. Someone who is broadly competent and has travelled throughout Britain and Ireland will have such a list at a reasonable level. Those who try hard to build such a list regardless of their competence will have a bigger one. Those of better competence may have a bigger or a smaller one depending on their respective search areas and how widely they travel.

Bottom line is if you pull out a Desert Wheatear and an Upland Sandpiper in Clevedon - its obvious you know what you are doing (not me!) - and the same can be said for Short-toed Lark and Little Bunting in Berkshire (regardless of whether you then back it up with Brunnich's Guillemot, Veery, Olivaceous Warbler etc at better locations).

It is a similar problem to people that do not keep a patch or National or British & Irish List and do not understand the difference TO ME in the value of an Upland Sandpiper in Clevedon in comparison to an Upland Sandpiper on Scillies or a Thick-billed Warbler on Fair Isle in comparison to a Thick-billed Warbler at Beidahe.

All the best

 

[Brian Stretch]

OK Paul, we get the picture.

Here's one for you: You live in Tunbridge Wells and you pop out for a walk by your local wood and bump in to a Blackpoll Warbler. Surprise or indifference?

Brian
___________
Birding Today

 

[Paul Chapman]

Brian

I only just restrained myself from posting on Andy's thread - "That would have been a surprise!"

(But the opposite to surprise is not indifference. Indifference may be the opposite to excitement but I'd need to think about that.)

All the very best

 

[ZanderII]

I think that I’ve finally worked it out.

Great!

My problem isn’t solely with the expression ‘genuine surprise’ but the fact that someone gets more pleasure or value out of Manxie (b) rather than Manxie (a) or Bittern (b) rather than Bittern (a).

I certainly would, adrenalin levels in my blood stream would change significantly in the event of one, but not the other.

I do not keep such a list so its simply not relevant to me. Someone who is broadly competent and has travelled throughout Britain and Ireland will have such a list at a reasonable level. Those who try hard to build such a list regardless of their competence will have a bigger one. Those of better competence may have a bigger or a smaller one depending on their respective search areas and how widely they travel.

Bottom line is if you pull out a Desert Wheatear and an Upland Sandpiper in Clevedon - its obvious you know what you are doing (not me!) - and the same can be said for Short-toed Lark and Little Bunting in Berkshire (regardless of whether you then back it up with Brunnich's Guillemot, Veery, Olivaceous Warbler etc at better locations).

It is a similar problem to people that do not keep a patch or National or British & Irish List and do not understand the difference TO ME in the value of an Upland Sandpiper in Clevedon in comparison to an Upland Sandpiper on Scillies or a Thick-billed Warbler on Fair Isle in comparison to a Thick-billed Warbler at Beidahe.

All the best

Who doesn't understand the difference? Buff-bellied Pipit laterly on Foula in Oct = 'great' but no cigar, BBP in Lincs in Feb when they were rare = knighthood.

 

[ZanderII]

Personally if I had found a Dusky Warbler at Holkham, the day of the Rufous-tailed Robin dip, I would not have been particularly surprised - genuinely or otherwise!

You found lots of Duskies before then....?

 

[Paul Chapman]

ZanderII

I simply do not understand your last three posts so I suspect that you are not reading mine or I am not making myself clear.

My comment is about whether I would have been surprised or not. For someone whose Avatar states "Caution Unquestioning Religious Automatons" I find it very odd that you should effectively demand such a reaction from me and doubt me when I state how I would react. However, I find it odd that your adrenalin levels would change in the way that you suggest as well.

As for phylloscs, I have simply found Yellow-browed Warbler - same for most people I expect. There has been one patch Dusky and one patch Pallas's so I wouldn't rule out either in the future. I know that if I routinely birded conditions on the east coast or Shetland, those prospects would improve but no intention of changing my habits.

If you list your heroes as people who would not be surprised in certain circumstances, that's the oddest list I have ever heard anyone keep!

All the very best

 

[Paul Chapman]

The reference to heroes no longer makes sense because ZanderII deleted a post. Not sure if he is playing games as a result but I'm simply logging out.

All the best

 

[ZanderII]

The reference to heroes no longer makes sense because ZanderII deleted a post. Not sure if he is playing games as a result but I'm simply logging out.

All the best

No games, don't read anything into it. Just surprised that people wouldn't get a kick out of finding a rare bird.

Imagine the twitching scenario... but in this case you had already seen a video of the bird on the internet taken by some enterprising types the previous day who chartered a rowing boat out there. You see the bird a speck in the middle of the res the next day. Views were much better on the internet....

Maybe you regret you even travelled? Certainly you either wished you had been with the chaps and chapesses on the boat, but wouldn't it have been better if the bird had swung into view whilst you were doing a WeBS count unbeknownst to you...

each to his/her own.....

 

[Jhanlon]

I think the idea of self-found lists - at least in a sense of comparing to others - is fundamentally flawed. As some people have said, no-one will ever agree and there's too many opportunities here to pick holes in others' arguments.

Keep your own list according to whatever rules you like. Punkbirders provide a good base-line, just amend accordingly. Personally I don't mind the 'being honest with yourself' argument but it's hard to justify this and other points as there will always be borderline cases. And yes, it's a major drawback that this latter point puts those 'in the dark' about bird news at a slight advantage.

I could list lots of personal examples here of such borderline cases but won't, as other posters have already highlighted the kind of issues raised. If there is one list which should be 'your own list', surely this is the one?

 

[Johnny Allan]

Thread prompted me to do a quick count. 220 species self found this year...and that's in Ireland. Britain should be able to manage more with all it's extra species.

No offence Johnny, but I have heard this "If I spent more time in your area/hotspot I would find more" argument before.

Yes there are undoubted areas that a better than others for producing birds. No argument there.

But I firmly believe that if more birders put the same amount of time into finding birds as they did into twitching birds then it would be a very different world.

In my experience however, many birders reserve their time off for twitching at the prime times of year/ putting themselves on prime migration spots at the right times of year, rather than putting in a consistent effort throughout the year.

Owen

Hi Owen,

no reason for offence to be taken, I've also heard the argument before, although I'd call it a point, and it is, of course, correct. It's just that there are some (not your good self of course), who crow about the 'good' birds they've self-found when it's all relative. Of course it's nice to find your own birds but for the majority of birders, it won't be many, or any, scarce or rare birds, which is what I think most people are referring to, when they say self-found.

I'm fortunate that my patch is one of the best in London/Surrey but Beddington could never compete with coastal hotspots in terms of scarce and rare birds found. I know of many other solid patchwatchers who put the time in on patches where they find little in the way of real rarities but nevertheless add much to the Ornithological database.

Don't get me wrong, I think people should be free to do whatever they want in birding, whether it be enjoying birds in their garden, working their local patch, sitting at home waiting for their pager to tell them where to go next, targetting hot spots in the hope of finding a rarity or a mixture of all these and more.

I agree that, wherever you live, the more time you put into birding your local area (and I know that some have far more or far less time than others), the more you will find, even if it's just locally good. Of course, where you live/bird will largely determine what you find (although there is always the unexpected, once in a lifetime, such as Blackpoll Warbler

Johnny

 

[Johnny Allan]

I think the idea of self-found lists - at least in a sense of comparing to others - is fundamentally flawed. As some people have said, no-one will ever agree and there's too many opportunities here to pick holes in others' arguments.

Keep your own list according to whatever rules you like. Punkbirders provide a good base-line, just amend accordingly. Personally I don't mind the 'being honest with yourself' argument but it's hard to justify this and other points as there will always be borderline cases. And yes, it's a major drawback that this latter point puts those 'in the dark' about bird news at a slight advantage.

I could list lots of personal examples here of such borderline cases but won't, as other posters have already highlighted the kind of issues raised. If there is one list which should be 'your own list', surely this is the one?

Hi James,

having read the various points made, I agree. Whatever set of rules one applies, surely a life list of self-found birds is going to be biased to where you live and bird. That said, no reason why someone can't have one if they wish. Correct me if i'm wrong but I just can't see anyone setting out to do a serious national self-found year list.

Johnny

 

[Dom F]

I honestly don't see why so many people are confused by this. It's really very simple, but if you don't agree with the concept, then that's absolutely fine and dandy. And just to recap on the thread for those who haven't read it, punkbirder rules apply. Simple!

For example, you can't count bittern at minsmere because we all know they are there, they're even written on the sightings board. You could count one in the Broads, as you would simply be putting yourself in the right habitat, without really knowing where they are. That strikes me as an obvious distinction, and all this talk of meadow pipits in Tescos is just over thinking it IMO.

Playing devils advocate here does that mean that you cant count seawatching as you are deliberately looking in the habitat that they occur in - therefore you could only count manxies on inland reservoirs

 

[Paul Chapman]

ZanderII

No worries. I think we've just got crossed wires. One of those Internet things. I get a kick out of finding things but its not my primary driver like some.

Seeing things that are new - whether they be on my patch or in Britain, Isle of Man & Ireland are my primary bird listing drivers. I generally bird with others and I can honestly say who gets on something first is not something that enters my mind very often if at all. I cannot recall with an autumn Woodchat Shrike on Fair Isle twenty years ago whether my friend or I saw it first, who said Woodchat first or who first started recounting the features to eliminate Masked Shrike - which at the time would have been a first. Similarly when I mentioned badius on a Woodchat locally, and I believe that I was the first to say it, I did not care that someone wanted to lay claim to being the first to express the view.

I'm probably just expressing myself badly. By saying, I would not be surprised - it is not meant to be an expression of likelihood - I am realistic on that - or an expression of lack of emotion or excitement. Its just 'surprise' is a strong word in my perception and being on the east coast in good conditions - finding one of the things for which I would already have had a search image would not be a surprise even if the likelihood of me doing it is relatively limited. In the Dusky example, it would probably be the tenth or so record for Holkham/Wells, whereas the Green-winged Teal was the first record for my patch. So if the latter was not a surprise even if less likely on strict probability terms maybe the first would not have been a surprise to me either. In expressing a lack of surprise I am not belittling the achievement or the emotional element, I am simply referring to my subjective interpretation of such an experience.

All the best

 

[Richard Klim]

Haven't followed all the arguments here, but I can fully understand those who attach no real value to counting species seen at places like Minsmere or Titchwell, which are nowadays little more than zoos with free-flying collections (micro-managed habitat with clearly-numbered islands etc).