Ardeidae (2 Viewers)

[Peter Kovalik]

Proposal (994) to SACC

Treat Cattle Egret Bubulcus ibis as two species

 

[Peter Kovalik]

Proposal (994) to SACC

Treat Cattle Egret Bubulcus ibis as two species

DID NOT PASS

 

[Mysticete]

DID NOT PASS

This is interesting, given that it makes SACC an outlier, especially since NACC just recently voted to split them.

 

[pbjosh]

This is interesting, given that it makes SACC an outlier, especially since NACC just recently voted to split them.

On one hand I think that despite the chaos it's very healthy to have a lot of different opinions filtering in on taxonomy and it's good to try to move to alignment between IOC and eBird. At the same times, there are moments of "cue the circus music" but I don't say that to be disparaging to anyone

 

[Jim LeNomenclatoriste]

The only unknowns in Ardeidae are Ardea sumatrana and Egretta picata

I find however that Egretta picata looks more like an Ardea than Egretta, its beak seems more rounded and I wonder if there are not differences in plumage in juveniles between Ardea and Egretta.

 

[in vitrio]

Been trying to sort out my pics.

If I understand, the great white egret is a heron, not an egret, but it has a subspecific egretta?

Isn't that a bit hedging bets? "It's not an egret, it's a heron." "What type of heron?" "Egret."

 

[Jim LeNomenclatoriste]

Been trying to sort out my pics.

If I understand, the great white egret is a heron, not an egret, but it has a subspecific egretta?

Isn't that a bit hedging bets? "It's not an egret, it's a heron." "What type of heron?" "Egret."

I campaign with myself to remove once and for all "Great White Egret" which no longer makes sense. Obviously, in my native language.

 

[in vitrio]

Problem seems to be that the great white heron is a heron, but not the same as the great white egret, which is also a heron.

So we have the great white heron, which is a blue heron, and the great white egret, which is a heron, but surnamed egret.

 

[pbjosh]

Problem seems to be that the great white heron is a heron, but not the same as the great white egret, which is also a heron.

So we have the great white heron, which is a blue heron, and the great white egret, which is a heron, but surnamed egret.

I am not sure but it seems a British English thing to call it Geeat White Egret? I’ve certainly never heard that name in use in the W Hemisphere and don’t hear it much when mixing languages in Europe. Is that name used in ZA, AU, or NZ?

 

[Jim LeNomenclatoriste]

Problem seems to be that the great white heron is a heron, but not the same as the great white egret, which is also a heron.

So we have the great white heron, which is a blue heron, and the great white egret, which is a heron, but surnamed egret.

In French, like in English, genus Egretta (and allies) is named Aigrette, and genus Ardea (included Bubulcus) is named Héron, except Ardea alba which is always named "Grande Aigrette". But it shouldn't, it should be excluded from genus "Aigrette" to become a species under Héron (Héron aigrette). However, the name Grande Aigrette was first created by Buffon to American population, later named Ardea egretta by Gmelin, meaning that European pops cannot be named "Grande Aigrette" if a split was made. Fortunately, some authors used the name "Héron blanc" (which is the literal translation of Ardea alba) and this is the name I use because I recognize several species within the Ardea alba complex. Even common, a name is often or always linked to a binomial taxon (what I say here only applies to my language)

 

[James Lowther]

Problem seems to be that the great white heron is a heron, but not the same as the great white egret, which is also a heron.

So we have the great white heron, which is a blue heron, and the great white egret, which is a heron, but surnamed egret.

Taxonomically there is no real distinction between herons and egrets (in English language usage at least).

Both Ardea and Egretta have a mix of species called “heron” and “egret”.

Harmonising the English names with the taxonomy is not worth the hassle in this particular case

Cheers
James

 

[THE_FERN]

Taxonomically there is no real distinction between herons and egrets (in English language usage at least).

Both Ardea and Egretta have a mix of species called “heron” and “egret”.

Harmonising the English names with the taxonomy is not worth the hassle in this particular case

Cheers
James

And (to repeat) common or English names do not have to perform the same function as scientific names: there is absolutely no requirement they follow phylogeny or taxonomy. Nor should they---or else you render one of them (English/scientific) redundant

 

[Bowerbirder]

I am not sure but it seems a British English thing to call it Geeat White Egret? I’ve certainly never heard that name in use in the W Hemisphere and don’t hear it much when mixing languages in Europe. Is that name used in ZA, AU, or NZ?

Great Egret in Australia, White Heron in New Zealand.

 

[Paul Clapham]

I am not sure but it seems a British English thing to call it Geeat White Egret?

It is. The British List uses the IOC taxonomy, but it uses different English names for a few species. This is one of them.

 

[in vitrio]

It's a shame Scott Walker is no longer with us, as he would have advised keeping the original name. "There's no re-grets."

 

[Taphrospilus]

I assume a stupid question, but I ask as I found Alcedo aegyptia Hasselquist, F 1766 here https://avibase.bsc-eoc.org/species.jsp?lang=EN&avibaseid=6BB94D7EA4D041A8&sec=synonyms as a synonym of Nycticorax nycticorax.

OD Voyages and travels in the Levant in the years 1749, 50, 51, 52 - Biodiversity Heritage Library The Egyptian King-fisher or Voyages and travels in the Levant in the years 1749, 50, 51, 52 - Biodiversity Heritage Library

I am wondering now what Gurney meant here Notes on the birds of Damara Land and the adjacent countries of South-west Africa - Biodiversity Heritage Library
Nycticorax aegyptius Gurney, JH Sr, 1872 => Nycticorax ægyptius (Hasselq.) European Night Heron?

 

[l_raty]

I assume a stupid question, but I ask as I found Alcedo aegyptia Hasselquist, F 1766 here Nycticorax nycticorax (Black-crowned Night-Heron) - Avibase as a synonym of Nycticorax nycticorax.

OD Voyages and travels in the Levant in the years 1749, 50, 51, 52 - Biodiversity Heritage Library The Egyptian King-fisher or Voyages and travels in the Levant in the years 1749, 50, 51, 52 - Biodiversity Heritage Library

The name as it is used there would be a nomen nudum, and the bird it was intended to denote perfectly unidentifiable.
The name I would expect to find listed as a syn. of Ardea nycticorax Linnaeus 1758 is Alcedo aegyptia (Linnaeus in) Hasselquist 1762 : Reise nach Palästina in den Jahren von 1749 bis 1752
The names in this book, however, are nowadays treated as unavailable, the work having been rejected by the Commission (see Direction 32) as a mere (partly) translated version of a pre-1758 work, the content of which had not been modified beyond translation. The original version had been published in 1757 : 1757 - Fredric Hasselquists ... Iter Palæstinum - Biodiversity Heritage Library

I am wondering now what Gurney meant here Notes on the birds of Damara Land and the adjacent countries of South-west Africa - Biodiversity Heritage Library
Nycticorax aegyptius Gurney, JH Sr, 1872 => Nycticorax ægyptius (Hasselq.) European Night Heron?

Gurney presumably felt it necessary to change the specific name when "Nycticorax" was used for the genus, and used what he perceived to be the next oldest name.

 

[Taphrospilus]

The names in this book, however, are nowadays treated as unavailable, the work having been rejected by the Commission (see Direction 32) as a mere (partly) translated version of a pre-1758 work, the content of which had not been modified beyond translation. The original version had been published in 1757 : 1757 - Fredric Hasselquists ... Iter Palæstinum - Biodiversity Heritage Library

So why Hasselquist has no priority over Linnaeus? Found a similar case with Plegadis falcinellus and Tringa autumnalis

1757 - Fredric Hasselquists ... Iter Palæstinum - Biodiversity Heritage Library

The Biodiversity Heritage Library works collaboratively to make biodiversity literature openly available to the world as part of a global biodiversity community.

www.biodiversitylibrary.org

 

[Jim LeNomenclatoriste]

So why Hasselquist has no priority over Linnaeus? Found a similar case with Plegadis falcinellus and Tringa autumnalis

1757 - Fredric Hasselquists ... Iter Palæstinum - Biodiversity Heritage Library

The Biodiversity Heritage Library works collaboratively to make biodiversity literature openly available to the world as part of a global biodiversity community.

www.biodiversitylibrary.org

The anchor point of Latin nomenclature is the tenth edition of Linnaeus's Systema Naturae (1758). Everything published before, even the early works of Linnaeus, has no taxonomic value (but has important literary and historical value)

 

[l_raty]

Article 3. Starting point | International Code of Zoological Nomenclature

code.iczn.org

Article 3. Starting point

The date 1 January 1758 is arbitrarily fixed in this Code as the date of the starting point of zoological nomenclature.

3.1. Works and names published in 1758
Two works are deemed to have been published on 1 January 1758:

• Linnaeus's Systema Naturae, 10th Edition;
• Clerck's Aranei Svecici.

Names in the latter have precedence over names in the former, but names in any other work published in 1758 are deemed to have been published after the 10th Edition of Systema Naturae.

3.2. Names, acts and information published before 1758
No name or nomenclatural act published before 1 January 1758 enters zoological nomenclature, but information (such as descriptions or illustrations) published before that date may be used. (See Article 8.7.1 for the status of names, acts and information in works published after 1757 which have been suppressed for nomenclatural purposes by the Commission).