Are Zen Rays 8x43 ED's really that good? (1 Viewer)

[[email protected]]

I will add my signature to the above quoted statement from Dennis. I will also add that in my brief side by side comparison of the ZEN and EDG that the two stack up in a quite similar manner.

When it began to dawn on me how good the Promaster ELX ED and the ZEN ED really are (the Promaster has to be put in the discussion too as does the Hawke, although it seems to be that the Hawke is softer at the edge than the other two) I was in a quandary about actually coming out and saying how close the images seen were to the high end alpha binoculars. I could just hear laughter in the halls upon reading such a statement. But their image is what it is. That image is too close to call for the vast majority of folks who recreate with a binocular in their possession. That is the strength of this binocular.

I think there is room for discussion of the technical merits of optical design, the construction, the workmanship, company reputation and longevity, and even warranty and service issues. There has to be something that justifies the extortionist prices charged for these binoculars and the reason people pay it. Paying that difference based on image alone is no longer a valid alpha argument.

Actually, when we get to images of this general quality level, nothing really gets blown away by something else. Surely there are individual image preferences that will be profound for some people. But while I would not claim the ZEN blows away one of the alphas, the alpha cannot similarly blow the ZEN away either.

The Zen Ray's 8x43 ED blew my Nikon 8x32 L-XL's away there is no better way to describe the differences in view. Sorry! I just had to say that. I had my Nikon 8x32 SE's and the Zen Ray's 8x43 ED's out this morning since it was nice here in Colorado doing some birding and the Zen Ray's continue to impress me. They are really very ,very close to being as sharp as the Nikon's but their huge FOV just sets them apart. They are not quite as sharp as the Nikon's at the edge but their sweet spot is so big you really don't care. The focus is actually pretty smooth now. They are heavier than the SE's but quite well balanced. The view is just stunning! Remarkable for the price! I think I am going to buy some stock in Zen Ray! Wow! I can't wait till they get some mid-size binoculars out. I will be first in line to buy them!

Dennis

 

[[email protected]]

Well, I just received my ZEN 8x43 ED's and initially, they seem very nice, although I have only much cheaper glass to compare to.

Here are my initial impressions fwiw

1) They don't look or feel as big as I expected

2) focus ring is very smooth, not real stiff or loose and no binding anywhere

3) Nice fov, and pretty clear image...makes looking thru nikon action 7x35's almost unbearable by comparison (which is expected, I guess).

4) No slop in left eyecup, a little in right, but no more than maybe 1/64 on periphery.

5) Even the objective lense caps don't appear to be too loose, as noted in other posts.

Good recommendation by you guys, so far...no surprises as far as qc goes.

Thanks

Richard

The more you use them the more you will like them.The Bushmaster pop-open type objective covers really work nice on them.Their quite a step up from Nikon Action 7x35's. Enjoy.

Dennis

 

[ceasar]

It would be quite interesting and informative to see Hawke, Zen and other binoculars that aspire to "Alpha" status analyzed and reviewed in a like manner as the ones are in the link below. Perhaps then we could dispense with arguing what is meant by terms like "blown away."

http://www.lintuvaruste.fi/hinnasto/optiikkaarvostelu/optics_1_topbinoculars_GB.shtml (These are the famed "Alula" reviews.)
They are written in English.
Cordially,
Bob

 

[Alexis Powell]

Thanks for the follow-up discussion everyone. I'm still very interested in a proper review of the Zen-Ray ED against the alphas, but it seems from what has been said that the day has finally come that we have optically excellent bargain roofs. We had one arguably false alarm in FrankD's enthusiastic review of the Vortex Razor when it was first released (no criticism intended Frank), but this time it seems it is the real deal. I must say, this day has taken a very very long time to come about, and I though don't understand why it took so long, I'm not surprised it has finally happened. I've always been perplexed as to why it appeared to be so difficult (based on their nonexistence) to manufacture cheap but optically-excellent roof-prism binos. In contrast, superb complex but cheap camera lenses have been around for many years. As a lover of the great brands and their illustrious histories etc, I do find it a bit sad that this probably means we are seeing the last days of top-end European bino manufacture. I only hope it will not come at the price of also losing some of these companies' design and production expertise. I hope the brands can live on in a meaningful way, as they already do to an extent as indicators of design or quality on products made by other manufacturers (e.g. Zeiss SLR lenses made by Cosina in Japan). I also find it a bit sad that even if these companies do continue to make binos in Europe that those products will function primarily as status symbols since even binocular enthusiasts will not be able to justify paying their extraordinary prices given little if any meaningful difference in performance (as, for instance, is already the case with current German production Leica camera gear). I guess the transition is already happening--I see most top Euro birding binos are now selling for $2000 rather than the $700-$1000 they went for a decade ago, whereas prices of cheap but serviceable binos have hardly changed despite improvements in quality. Given the economic hardship many consumers are feeling... Oh well, enough of my mourning the fact that the world changes...moving on.


If I were still an obsessive bino collector (or if I had more money right now) I'd have already got a Zen-Ray ED. As it is, these days I'm only interested in buying binos that are significantly better for my uses than what I already have, but I do look forward to trying the Zen-Ray ED myself, especially because I'm already recommending it to others (something I've never done before--recommending a bino I've never tried, that is!) based on their apparently revolutionary quality at sub $1000 cost. Until I can try them, I'd appreciate a better description of two things related to their focus operation. Is the focus as slow as the original EL? I would appreciate a more careful description of both the number of revolutions the knob is turned AND the diameter of the knob since both are important for determining apparent focus speed. Second--the comments on how much the focus stiffens in the cold have not been easy to interpret. These days, I live in Minnesota, where it is quite cold for much of the year, so I'd like to know more about this. In January, some friends of a colleague flew in from out of town to go birding with us in northern MN. Their schedule, fixed in advance by their plane tickets, left us no flexibility on the timing of the trip, so we found ourselves birding during the coldest weather of the winter. It was -38 degrees F at 8AM, rising to -24 degrees around noon. We had a great time, saw a lot of good birds, and were happy that our Zeiss FL, Swarovski SLC, and Leica Ultravid binos were still easy to focus.

--AP

 

[rjwims]

The more you use them the more you will like them.The Bushmaster pop-open type objective covers really work nice on them.

Dennis

As I said previously, the covers that came with mine seem fine. I've tried to encourage them to fall off and they won't (so far)

Until I can try them, I'd appreciate a better description of two things related to their focus operation. Is the focus as slow as the original EL? I would appreciate a more careful description of both the number of revolutions the knob is turned AND the diameter of the knob since both are important for determining apparent focus speed. Second--the comments on how much the focus stiffens in the cold have not been easy to interpret.
--AP

The focus knob measures 1.375" or just under 35mm (diameter). It is just over 1 1/16" long. It is black and has 20 (gray colored) raised lines or sections, measuring ( 3/4" long x over 1/16) wide on its periphery.

It requires approx. 2 1/2 turns to travel the full range. I measured 2 full turns from close focus to focusing on the moon, with another 1/2 turn beyond that to the end of travel.

More accurately, considering 20 indents per revolution, full travel is 53 indents from stop to stop.

I can't comment on the EL or cold weather operation, except to say that the focus knob on mine is very smooth and responds easily to very small tweaking of the knob.

Richard

 

[lulubelle]

Alexis,
At those temps I am suprised your fingers were flexible enough to manipulate the focus wheel!!

 

[FrankD]

Wow, this thread went places since I visited a few days ago.

Lots to comment on.

For starters, I think Kimmo's comments about sweet spot size are well founded. One thing I have learned about the size of the sweet spot is that the perception of it seems to vary from one individual to the next. I have no doubt that Kimmo is using some form of repeatable scientific procedure to determine his findings. The difference may reside in the fact that everyone else is relying on personal experience (myself included) to make their comments. The question, in my mind, then arises "which is more applicable?" Is the static scientific test more accurate or is the more dynamic personal use of the binocular the more accurate measure?

In this case I am referring to the Hawke Frontier ED as Kimmo does not have access to the Zen Ray ED I believe at the moment.

That is an interesting point in and of itself though as the two do offer slightly, but noticeably, different levels of optical performance. Of course they are more alike than not in the grand scheme of things but they do offer, arguably, different levels of optical performance in certain areas. (On a side note, isn't it amazing what some subtle differences in internal design can do for overall optical performance? Physically, on the outside, the binoculars are practically identical but internally......)

...and here is an interesting thought along the lines of Kimmo's (and Dennis's subsequent follow up) comment on prism coatings...What if the Zen EDs did incorporate dielectric mirror coatings?

I did have the 7x42 FLs at the same time as I had the Zen EDs. The FLs are brighter but the interesting point that Kimmo made earlier is that...

"However, the difference is more of the order of being perceptible than really meaningfull."

And to switch directions a bit....

Alexis,

I always enjoy constructive criticism especially from someone such as yourself. I think my enthusiasm for the Razors was fairly well founded as they do offer very good performance for the price (and are in many ways similar optically to the Leica Trinovids). But, you live and you learn. I am always willing to admit when my opinion gets a little over-exhuberant.

I think Richard did a nice job of answering the specifics on focusing speed. I will say that I do feel the focusing knob lubricant is something to improve upon. My pair do get noticeably stiffer in colder weather (comparable in this regard to many external focus porro prism binoculars). Considering how willing Zen Ray has been to constructive criticism I would not be surprised if they have not already remedied this concern or will do so shortly.

These are wonderful binoculars (I don't think anyone disputes that at this point). They are going to sell quite a few of these.

 

[Tero]

Sounds like folks are having way to much fun with ZR, and we...the minority?...are stuck with Promasters and have to go in our own sandbox to talk about them.

 

[Kevin Conville]

Around here asking "Are Zen Rays 8x43 ED's really that good?" makes me think of the green alien girl in a micro mini skirt and go-go boots asking Captain Kirk "What is this...love?"

 

[[email protected]]

Wow, this thread went places since I visited a few days ago.

Lots to comment on.

For starters, I think Kimmo's comments about sweet spot size are well founded. One thing I have learned about the size of the sweet spot is that the perception of it seems to vary from one individual to the next. I have no doubt that Kimmo is using some form of repeatable scientific procedure to determine his findings. The difference may reside in the fact that everyone else is relying on personal experience (myself included) to make their comments. The question, in my mind, then arises "which is more applicable?" Is the static scientific test more accurate or is the more dynamic personal use of the binocular the more accurate measure?

In this case I am referring to the Hawke Frontier ED as Kimmo does not have access to the Zen Ray ED I believe at the moment.

That is an interesting point in and of itself though as the two do offer slightly, but noticeably, different levels of optical performance. Of course they are more alike than not in the grand scheme of things but they do offer, arguably, different levels of optical performance in certain areas. (On a side note, isn't it amazing what some subtle differences in internal design can do for overall optical performance? Physically, on the outside, the binoculars are practically identical but internally......)

...and here is an interesting thought along the lines of Kimmo's (and Dennis's subsequent follow up) comment on prism coatings...What if the Zen EDs did incorporate dielectric mirror coatings?

I did have the 7x42 FLs at the same time as I had the Zen EDs. The FLs are brighter but the interesting point that Kimmo made earlier is that...

"However, the difference is more of the order of being perceptible than really meaningfull."

And to switch directions a bit....

Alexis,

I always enjoy constructive criticism especially from someone such as yourself. I think my enthusiasm for the Razors was fairly well founded as they do offer very good performance for the price (and are in many ways similar optically to the Leica Trinovids). But, you live and you learn. I am always willing to admit when my opinion gets a little over-exhuberant.

I think Richard did a nice job of answering the specifics on focusing speed. I will say that I do feel the focusing knob lubricant is something to improve upon. My pair do get noticeably stiffer in colder weather (comparable in this regard to many external focus porro prism binoculars). Considering how willing Zen Ray has been to constructive criticism I would not be surprised if they have not already remedied this concern or will do so shortly.

These are wonderful binoculars (I don't think anyone disputes that at this point). They are going to sell quite a few of these.

What's great about Zen-Ray is that they are bringing superb optics to people who maybe can't afford $2K for the alpha binoculars(Like myself).The recreational people, people going on cruises, hunters and nature lovers. I will be looking foy any new models that they come out with especially if they are even close to the quality of the 8x43 ED. It will enable me to enlarge my binocular collection without costing and arm and leg.

Dennis

 

[Kevin Purcell]

Around here asking "Are Zen Rays 8x43 ED's really that good?" makes me think of the green alien girl in a micro mini skirt and go-go boots asking Captain Kirk "What is this...love?"

Perhaps another metaphor for the Chinese EDs versus the Big 4: Kirk is not a great ACT-tor but he gets the job done.

 

[FrankD]

Around here asking "Are Zen Rays 8x43 ED's really that good?" makes me think of the green alien girl in a micro mini skirt and go-go boots asking Captain Kirk "What is this...love?"

...and you have a whole generation scratching their head as to who Kirk is. I would be willing to be that half of them don't even know who Jean-Luc Picard is....



...and, no, I am not a trekkie.

 

[lulubelle]

Those of who actually know watched or at least understand the Kirk and the green girl reference are dating ourselves!! I had the opportunity to look through a friends' Leica 8x32 BR yesterday and, while I know it is an older alpha, I could pull out details with my ZR that she couldn't from a variety of distances. I dare say the Promaster would have done the same. It was nice to have the opportunity to compare them side to side.

 

[[email protected]]

...and you have a whole generation scratching their head as to who Kirk is. I would be willing to be that half of them don't even know who Jean-Luc Picard is....



...and, no, I am not a trekkie.

The Zen Rays 8x43 ED's have me wondering how they can build such an optically excellent binocular for such a good price. I think it is similar to Chinese ED telescopes that have changed amateur astronomy and brought APO telescopes price down to the point where everybody can afford them. I notice the Zen Ray and all the Chinese ED's appear to be longer than some of the alpha binoculars also. They might be taking advantage of using a slower focal ratio(higher f number) to also get rid of some of the CA and abberrations. Longer telescopes accomplished getting rid of CA by pure focal length long before they had the ED and fluorite glass to do the job. A "slower" focal ratio will give you better images also. It might be the same principle here.

Dennis

 

[ceasar]

...and you have a whole generation scratching their head as to who Kirk is. I would be willing to be that half of them don't even know who Jean-Luc Picard is....



...and, no, I am not a trekkie.

Quite true! But, do you know who the Janitor was on the Research Ship "Calypso?"

No! Well here is the answer.

Jacques Custodian!! :-O:king:

 

[rjwims]

Quite true! But, do you know who the Janitor was on the Research Ship "Calypso?"

No! Well here is the answer.

Jacques Custodian!! :-O:king:

Ok, but who was the dish washer on the good ship lollypop? :-O

We now return to our regularly scheduled program.

While most of this is new to me, I can't help making a couple of comments.

1) I think that it might be fair to say that the 'bang for the buck' quality of the Chinese ED's seems to speak for itself

2) In Rome....the mob is fickle. If Bushnell or another company can match or beat the image quality of the ZR, PM or Hawke for $100 or more LESS in the near future, then many will be saying ZEN WHO?

3) At what point will the technology used to compare ( better than average) bins become almost mute, in that our eyes (at least for many of us) will not see the differences?

JMHO

Richard

 

[Glosbirder]

If all the superlative comments about the Zen-Ray 8x43ED are indeed true, the implications for European, and to a lesser, degree Japanese manufacturers are serious.

Certainly marquee names like Leica, Swarovski and Zeiss will always generate interest and appeal and rightly so based upon long-term presence and quality pieces. It seems, however, that the times are a changin' in that the Chinese are rapidly catching up in terms of quality. Is this 'good' or 'bad'? Good for optics buffs certainly...

I'll refrain from touching upon the possible economic, environmental and social implications. I suppose there's good reason why economics is called 'the dismal science.'

This "catch-up" is no bad thing. The Teutonic manufacturers are not going to go out of business overnight but cheaper, high-quality competition is certainly going to make them look to their laurels especially in terms of any temptation to overprice their products. I don't know what it's like in the States but in the UK it seems increasingly that unless you've got a pair of bins from the "Big Three" you aren't a serious birder. There's also a strong element of "I must have the best" regardless of whether you use the bins once a month or every day. I get very tired of the rampant materialism embedded in British society these days; I find it particularly ironic bearing in mind we get paid, on average, less and have to pay, on average, more for our high-end purchases than either our US or European counterparts. There's definitely an element of "fools and their money"...

My local optics shop in Bath has decided to stop importing selling Optolyth products partly because consumers only want the well known labels regardless of whether their products are either appropriate to their needs or overpriced.

Perhaps high-quality Chinese competition will encourage European manufacturers to establish good quality mid-priced products....

Jaeger70 I take your point about the environmental impact of transferring more manufacturing to a country with a very poor record for counter-pollution measures but I don't think that either German or Austrian manufacturers will be looking to shed many jobs yet.

 

[moondog]

Cheaper 'High End Bins'

Buyer beware: In my experience, the optical quality of these new Chinese binoculars are of a very high standard. I owned several pairs of similar products when they entered the market. However, within a short space of time I realized that the build quality and manufacturing standards seriously let down an otherwise optically brilliant binocular. Cheap magnesium alloys become brittle. I have had hinges snap in normal use and ocular tubes crack at the slightest knock and I don't consider myself an "animated" birder by any means. I have returned several pairs of binoculars and in one case had to ditch them all together because their is no repair service that makes the economical to repair. I could buy a new pair of binoculars for what I've been quoted for servicing and sadly that was the advice they gave me.

Sadly it's true here in the UK some birders measure your competence by what's 'round your neck. On some occasions both myself and my partner have been "bin checked" by people in hides who went on to prove by their loud and erroneous identification of species, that despite their Alpha badge, their skills need some work. However, on a recent visit to a bird fair and in optics shops I won't name, I have witnessed the shameless courting of the "newly retired with lump sum to spend" in order to insure the sale of "the best". They are conspicuous by their pristine, matching full "Innovation" uniform and shiny alpha binoculars.

Don't get me wrong Swaros, Zeiss and Leica binoculars are incredible pieces of optical engineering. However, there are other things we need to spend our money on, some of those things we'd rather not have to spend money on but that makes birding more of a nice distraction/ escape. I've known birders run up massive debts to get the latest of the best, only to have to sell them to get some money back to pay for a car repair. In an age of over and conspicuous consumption, investing in an alpha seems far more green than constantly buying and re-buying/ updating those, "nearly but not quite" binoculars. In the long run, you may end up spending three times what you'd pay for a pair of alphas anyway for less than perfect, poorly supported products.

At the end of the day, the best binoculars are the ones you take with you.

 

[[email protected]]

Buyer beware: In my experience, the optical quality of these new Chinese binoculars are of a very high standard. I owned several pairs of similar products when they entered the market. However, within a short space of time I realized that the build quality and manufacturing standards seriously let down an otherwise optically brilliant binocular. Cheap magnesium alloys become brittle. I have had hinges snap in normal use and ocular tubes at the slightest knock and I don't consider myself an "animated" birder by any means. I have returned several pairs of binoculars and in one case had to ditch them all together because their is no repair service that makes the economical to repair. I could buy a new pair of binoculars for what I've been quoted for servicing and sadly that was the advice they gave me.

Sadly it's true here in the UK some birders measure your competence by what's 'round your neck. On some occasions both myself and my partner have been "bin checked" by people in hides who went on to prove by their loud and erroneous identification of species, that despite their Alpha badge, their skills need some work. However, on a recent visit to a bird fair and in optics shops I won't name, I have witnessed the shameless courting of the "newly retired with lump sum to spend" in order to insure the sale of "the best". They are conspicuous by their pristine, matching full "Innovation" uniform and shiny alpha binoculars.

Don't get me wrong Swaros, Zeiss and Leica binoculars are incredible pieces of optical engineering. However, there are other things we need to spend our money on, some of those things we'd rather not have to spend money on but that makes birding more of a nice distraction/ escape. I've known birders run up massive debts to get the latest of the best, only to have to sell them to get some money back to pay for a car repair. In an age of over and conspicuous consumption, investing in an alpha seems far more green than constantly buying and re-buying/ updating those, "nearly but not quite" binoculars. In the long run, you may end up spending three times what you'd pay for a pair of alphas anyway for less than perfect, poorly supported products.

At the end of the day, the best binoculars are the ones you take with you.

Hmm. The Zen Ray appear to be of pretty good build quality. I would be surprised if a hinge snapped or an optical tube ed. What Chinese binoculars did you have that you had these sort of problems with? The problem with keeping an alpha binocular for years is that they become outdated with advancements in optics. Already these new Zen Ray's are superior to the older alphas for way less money. I think I would rather replace my binoculars every five years or less or so for a fifth the price and have the latest technology in optics than keeping a set of alphas for ten years. Zen Ray also seems to have excellent customer service and I really doubt if that is going to change so I don't think they will be poorly supported and really they are pretty close to being perfect.

Dennis

 

[Steve C]

Furthermore, the Promaster and ZEN binoculars have not been around long enough to fail in the ways moondog illustrates. Sorry moondog, but I have a large grain of salt close at hand. I'm sort of with Dennis here. I'd like to know a bit more about which makes and models you have had fail.